Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question

"Tony" wrote
 > Oh, I should also say that I'm using the Zalman Cu7000 on my processor, so
 > any NB solution should hopefully not interfere with that.


Hi,

I don't think the blue Zalman NB-cooler can fit the AI7 (or Modern INTEL
boards in general) as the Zalman uses *push-pins* and the AI7 has
*Sping-Clips*. The Thermalright NB-1 Chipset Cooler looks to be one of the
best 3rd party NB-HSF for the INTEl mobos.
--
Wayne ][<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

"Wayne Youngman" <waynes.spamtrap.RemoveThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:413349f5$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
 >
 > "Tony" wrote
  > > Oh, I should also say that I'm using the Zalman Cu7000 on my processor,
so
  > > any NB solution should hopefully not interfere with that.
 >
 >
 > Hi,
 >
 > I don't think the blue Zalman NB-cooler can fit the AI7 (or Modern INTEL
 > boards in general) as the Zalman uses *push-pins* and the AI7 has
 > *Sping-Clips*. The Thermalright NB-1 Chipset Cooler looks to be one of
the
 > best 3rd party NB-HSF for the INTEl mobos.
 > --
 > Wayne ][
 >
 >

Yes, I was afraid of that. While the clips allow for easy replacement, it
limits the aftermarket options. The NB-1 is about 48mm square. I'll have to
check to make sure it won't interfere with the Cu7000.

I've read of some using thermal epoxy to attach the Zalman to the NB chip,
bypassing the mounting issues.

Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than the NB-1
(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it is that
it does not have a speed sensing fan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:01 -0400, "Tony" <none.TakeThisOut@none.com> wrote:


 >
 >Yes, I was afraid of that. While the clips allow for easy replacement, it
 >limits the aftermarket options. The NB-1 is about 48mm square. I'll have to
 >check to make sure it won't interfere with the Cu7000.

Is the clip on the original 'sink removable (perhaps fan needs
removed first)? If so, reusing the clip will allow any old 'sink
with a suitably wide channel down the middle, for example, a
Pentium 1 heatsink.

 >
 >I've read of some using thermal epoxy to attach the Zalman to the NB chip,
 >bypassing the mounting issues.

I use thermal epoxy all the time to attach large passive 'sinks
to a northbridge, but it is not a good idea to do so for a
flipchip like the 865, because of both the small core having more
stress, and the increasing thermal density making it more
important to have best (reasonably possible) thermal interface.
Traditional thermal compound (even the cheap generic silicone
goop) far exceeds thermal efficiency of any epoxy.

 >
 >Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than the NB-1
 >(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it is that
 >it does not have a speed sensing fan.
 >


You are better off forgetting about speed-sensing fan and looking
at long term solutions, either a fan that won't be prone to fail
in another 12 months (high quality dual ball-bearing model with
low RPM, 15mm or thicker x 40-50mm diameter) or a passive 'sink.
Fan cooled northbridge is not an intel design and should not be
needed unless you're trying to squeeze that last dozen MHz of
overclock out of it, or operating in an extreme condition like
middle of the desert, but then the REST of the board isn't
engineered to survive that environment either. Many 865/875
boards use only a passive, fanless heatsink.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

I have a Zalman NB47J mounted on an IC7-G

You're reight that it won't fit 'as is' but it's not hard to modify
the existing ring/spring fixing to hold two 'dowels' (I used cut off
sections of knitting needle) which go between the heatsink fins.

This form a secure, efficient and removable solution.

GrahamU

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:01 -0400, "Tony" <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote:

 >
 >"Wayne Youngman" <waynes.spamtrap.DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
 >news:413349f5$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
  >>
  >> "Tony" wrote
   >> > Oh, I should also say that I'm using the Zalman Cu7000 on my processor,
 >so
   >> > any NB solution should hopefully not interfere with that.
  >>
  >>
  >> Hi,
  >>
  >> I don't think the blue Zalman NB-cooler can fit the AI7 (or Modern INTEL
  >> boards in general) as the Zalman uses *push-pins* and the AI7 has
  >> *Sping-Clips*. The Thermalright NB-1 Chipset Cooler looks to be one of
 >the
  >> best 3rd party NB-HSF for the INTEl mobos.
  >> --
  >> Wayne ][
  >>
  >>
 >
 >Yes, I was afraid of that. While the clips allow for easy replacement, it
 >limits the aftermarket options. The NB-1 is about 48mm square. I'll have to
 >check to make sure it won't interfere with the Cu7000.
 >
 >I've read of some using thermal epoxy to attach the Zalman to the NB chip,
 >bypassing the mounting issues.
 >
 >Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than the NB-1
 >(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it is that
 >it does not have a speed sensing fan.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

"kony" <spam.RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote in message
news:hia7j05pea2oov8366g6c2srs4gelk2ni3@4ax.com...
 > On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:01 -0400, "Tony" <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:
 >
 >
  > >
  > >Yes, I was afraid of that. While the clips allow for easy replacement, it
  > >limits the aftermarket options. The NB-1 is about 48mm square. I'll have
to
  > >check to make sure it won't interfere with the Cu7000.
 >
 > Is the clip on the original 'sink removable (perhaps fan needs
 > removed first)? If so, reusing the clip will allow any old 'sink
 > with a suitably wide channel down the middle, for example, a
 > Pentium 1 heatsink.
 >

Yes, the clip is removable.

  > >
  > >I've read of some using thermal epoxy to attach the Zalman to the NB
chip,
  > >bypassing the mounting issues.
 >
 > I use thermal epoxy all the time to attach large passive 'sinks
 > to a northbridge, but it is not a good idea to do so for a
 > flipchip like the 865, because of both the small core having more
 > stress, and the increasing thermal density making it more
 > important to have best (reasonably possible) thermal interface.
 > Traditional thermal compound (even the cheap generic silicone
 > goop) far exceeds thermal efficiency of any epoxy.
 >
  > >

Which passive sinks have you used on the NB?

  > >Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than the
NB-1
  > >(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it is
that
  > >it does not have a speed sensing fan.
  > >
 >
 >
 > You are better off forgetting about speed-sensing fan and looking
 > at long term solutions, either a fan that won't be prone to fail
 > in another 12 months (high quality dual ball-bearing model with
 > low RPM, 15mm or thicker x 40-50mm diameter) or a passive 'sink.
 > Fan cooled northbridge is not an intel design and should not be
 > needed unless you're trying to squeeze that last dozen MHz of
 > overclock out of it, or operating in an extreme condition like
 > middle of the desert, but then the REST of the board isn't
 > engineered to survive that environment either. Many 865/875
 > boards use only a passive, fanless heatsink.

Yes, that what really ticks me off about what Abit did. They did put a fan
on the NB (of course to squeeze the last bit of oc'ing out of it) and used a
well designed but cheaply engineered sleeve bearing fan for it. They could
have gone with a dual ball bearing fan, and it would have added maybe $2 to
the wholesale cost of the board.

Anyway, thanks for your comments! Good ones like these help!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:44:43 -0400, "Tony" <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote:


  >> I use thermal epoxy all the time to attach large passive 'sinks
  >> to a northbridge, but it is not a good idea to do so for a
  >> flipchip like the 865, because of both the small core having more
  >> stress, and the increasing thermal density making it more
  >> important to have best (reasonably possible) thermal interface.
  >> Traditional thermal compound (even the cheap generic silicone
  >> goop) far exceeds thermal efficiency of any epoxy.
  >>
   >> >
 >
 >Which passive sinks have you used on the NB?

Take your pick, I've been at this for a long time, don't need to
buy any heatsinks because I have several drawers full. Even
after a system is too old/slow/broken/etc to have core components
reused, things like 'sinks can be used again to be both lower
cost and more environmentally friendly. Plus, not too long ago I
needed some HQ fans and by buying a case of 'sinks with good fans
already on 'em, I got the needed fans cheaper than if purchased
separately, so I had even MORE 'sinks to (do "something" with).

One of my favorites is 1/3 of a Pentium 2 Klamath heatsink
(passive OEM tall-tined style). Often I'll use an old Pentium 1
heatsink, or for an extremely overclocked system, I may take a
'sink wide enough to mount a 50mm fan, like an early socket 370
or socket 7 'sink, then mount the fan, but not over the
northbridge 'sink itself, but rather draped over the power
regulation circuitry.. slow enough to be inaudible and live a
decade or two. If you use a heatsink with a very flat base, at
least (roughly) 3mm thick base and tines over it's center (unlike
those normally placed on motherboards with only a flat area over
the core center, heat source) it's not very hard to keep a
northbridge cool enough, the main limit is CPU heatsink
clearance, and on socket A boards, having enough room to
manipulate the heatsink clip if the tabs are vertically oriented,
but that's not a problem for you, your P4 box.

Aluminum is soft and easy to work with, you can end up with
whatever shape and size you want if you're willing to hacksaw and
file for a couple minutes.

Most of the boards I've done have been long since sold, or still
running here and can't be disturbed at the moment, but a few
random motherboards I've lying around unused with epoxied NB
'sinks:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/1.jpg" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/1.jpg</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/2.jpg" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/2.jpg</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/3.jpg" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/3.jpg</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/4.jpg" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/4.jpg</a>


 >
   >> >Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than the
 >NB-1
   >> >(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it is
 >that
   >> >it does not have a speed sensing fan.
   >> >
  >>
  >>
  >> You are better off forgetting about speed-sensing fan and looking
  >> at long term solutions, either a fan that won't be prone to fail
  >> in another 12 months (high quality dual ball-bearing model with
  >> low RPM, 15mm or thicker x 40-50mm diameter) or a passive 'sink.
  >> Fan cooled northbridge is not an intel design and should not be
  >> needed unless you're trying to squeeze that last dozen MHz of
  >> overclock out of it, or operating in an extreme condition like
  >> middle of the desert, but then the REST of the board isn't
  >> engineered to survive that environment either. Many 865/875
  >> boards use only a passive, fanless heatsink.
 >
 >Yes, that what really ticks me off about what Abit did. They did put a fan
 >on the NB (of course to squeeze the last bit of oc'ing out of it) and used a
 >well designed but cheaply engineered sleeve bearing fan for it. They could
 >have gone with a dual ball bearing fan, and it would have added maybe $2 to
 >the wholesale cost of the board.

The funny thing is that it may've actually cost them MORE to have
that fancy abit-specific fan made, a decent dual ball-bearing fan
might've cost a few dimes more if their 'sink was one already in
production.

One thing that many manufacturers seem clueless about is that it
isn't necessarily a desirable goal to have as shallow a fan as
possible. Indeed now they may have the 'sink sticking further up
in the air than the fan, when a fan must be 15mm thick or more to
allow for dual ball bearings of suitable size. Another problem
is that they don't seem to grasp that a fan does not need to spin
at 3500+ RPM, indeed if it isn't sufficient at 1500 RPM they have
used an incredibly poor heatsink, or sadly enough, may simply
have used one with a very poor surface finish (it seems that the
tops and sides of these 'sinks look mighty pretty but the
business end, the only side actually needing to be smooth, is the
roughest quite often)... then to top it off many of those on
non-flipchips don't even touch the core except on the outer
edges.


Perhaps the worse is when they use a single ball bearing, because
a single sleeve, on a 10mm fan, can be deep enough to keep fan
more stable, and if given enough lubricant, can have a good
service life, but apparently 1/100th of a cent worth of lube is
even too much to ask... which is why I don't even bother
anymore, none of my motherboards or video cards have their
original 'sinks on them except a few Asus, after removing 'sink,
lapping, and using thermal compound.

Since your present 'sink does have a removable clip, might it be
possible to use that clip on a Zalman like this one:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://store1.yimg.com/I/svcompucycle_1807_92442713" target="_blank">http://store1.yimg.com/I/svcompucycle_1807_92442713</a>
(not sure if that link will work, they stripped file extension
off of it).
It was from this page:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html" target="_blank">http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html</a>

You could also look around at electronics surplus 'sites for
something similar to the following, but with smaller dimensions:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=270&item=HS-70&type=store" target="_blank">http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=270&item=H...0&type=</a>

From the poor pictures I saw of your board, the NB clip looks
pretty thin, perhaps thin enough to slide inbetween the tines of
many 'sinks not really designed for that type of mounting?

If you REALLY wanted to use epoxy, it might be better to put
thermal compound in the middle, something with good longevity
like a synthetic (arctic silver III, IV, Alumina or Ceramique)
and attach the perimeter of heatsink base to the northbridge's
PCB carrier with the epoxy, by using a lot more of it and putting
a small weight on the 'sink to make sure it bottoms out on the
northbridge while the epoxy sets, though this procedure could
require a lot of attention to detail to be sure the contact is
good, there's no do-overs with epoxy, once it's set you should
never try to remove the 'sink as it may easily tear half of the
component off the motherboard instead of releasing at the
'sink-component epoxy bond... and of course your warranty is
void, LOL, which seems to be my primary goal most of the time but
you may have a different objective. <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question 

"kony" <spam.RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote in message
news:ob9aj0d2flocb580ch1dascajq1de6k260@4ax.com...
 > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:44:43 -0400, "Tony" <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:
 >
 >
   > >> I use thermal epoxy all the time to attach large passive 'sinks
   > >> to a northbridge, but it is not a good idea to do so for a
   > >> flipchip like the 865, because of both the small core having more
   > >> stress, and the increasing thermal density making it more
   > >> important to have best (reasonably possible) thermal interface.
   > >> Traditional thermal compound (even the cheap generic silicone
   > >> goop) far exceeds thermal efficiency of any epoxy.
   > >>
   > >> >
  > >
  > >Which passive sinks have you used on the NB?
 >
 > Take your pick, I've been at this for a long time, don't need to
 > buy any heatsinks because I have several drawers full. Even
 > after a system is too old/slow/broken/etc to have core components
 > reused, things like 'sinks can be used again to be both lower
 > cost and more environmentally friendly. Plus, not too long ago I
 > needed some HQ fans and by buying a case of 'sinks with good fans
 > already on 'em, I got the needed fans cheaper than if purchased
 > separately, so I had even MORE 'sinks to (do "something" with).
 >
 > One of my favorites is 1/3 of a Pentium 2 Klamath heatsink
 > (passive OEM tall-tined style). Often I'll use an old Pentium 1
 > heatsink, or for an extremely overclocked system, I may take a
 > 'sink wide enough to mount a 50mm fan, like an early socket 370
 > or socket 7 'sink, then mount the fan, but not over the
 > northbridge 'sink itself, but rather draped over the power
 > regulation circuitry.. slow enough to be inaudible and live a
 > decade or two. If you use a heatsink with a very flat base, at
 > least (roughly) 3mm thick base and tines over it's center (unlike
 > those normally placed on motherboards with only a flat area over
 > the core center, heat source) it's not very hard to keep a
 > northbridge cool enough, the main limit is CPU heatsink
 > clearance, and on socket A boards, having enough room to
 > manipulate the heatsink clip if the tabs are vertically oriented,
 > but that's not a problem for you, your P4 box.
 >
 > Aluminum is soft and easy to work with, you can end up with
 > whatever shape and size you want if you're willing to hacksaw and
 > file for a couple minutes.
 >
 > Most of the boards I've done have been long since sold, or still
 > running here and can't be disturbed at the moment, but a few
 > random motherboards I've lying around unused with epoxied NB
 > 'sinks:
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/1.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/1.jpg</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/2.jpg</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/3.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/3.jpg</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/4.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/nb_sinks/4.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 >
  > >
   > >> >Do you have any info on the Vantec IceBerg? That's even bigger than
the
  > >NB-1
   > >> >(!), but seems to sit lower. The only thing that bothers me about it
is
  > >that
   > >> >it does not have a speed sensing fan.
   > >> >
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> You are better off forgetting about speed-sensing fan and looking
   > >> at long term solutions, either a fan that won't be prone to fail
   > >> in another 12 months (high quality dual ball-bearing model with
   > >> low RPM, 15mm or thicker x 40-50mm diameter) or a passive 'sink.
   > >> Fan cooled northbridge is not an intel design and should not be
   > >> needed unless you're trying to squeeze that last dozen MHz of
   > >> overclock out of it, or operating in an extreme condition like
   > >> middle of the desert, but then the REST of the board isn't
   > >> engineered to survive that environment either. Many 865/875
   > >> boards use only a passive, fanless heatsink.
  > >
  > >Yes, that what really ticks me off about what Abit did. They did put a
fan
  > >on the NB (of course to squeeze the last bit of oc'ing out of it) and
used a
  > >well designed but cheaply engineered sleeve bearing fan for it. They
could
  > >have gone with a dual ball bearing fan, and it would have added maybe $2
to
  > >the wholesale cost of the board.
 >
 > The funny thing is that it may've actually cost them MORE to have
 > that fancy abit-specific fan made, a decent dual ball-bearing fan
 > might've cost a few dimes more if their 'sink was one already in
 > production.
 >
 > One thing that many manufacturers seem clueless about is that it
 > isn't necessarily a desirable goal to have as shallow a fan as
 > possible. Indeed now they may have the 'sink sticking further up
 > in the air than the fan, when a fan must be 15mm thick or more to
 > allow for dual ball bearings of suitable size. Another problem
 > is that they don't seem to grasp that a fan does not need to spin
 > at 3500+ RPM, indeed if it isn't sufficient at 1500 RPM they have
 > used an incredibly poor heatsink, or sadly enough, may simply
 > have used one with a very poor surface finish (it seems that the
 > tops and sides of these 'sinks look mighty pretty but the
 > business end, the only side actually needing to be smooth, is the
 > roughest quite often)... then to top it off many of those on
 > non-flipchips don't even touch the core except on the outer
 > edges.
 >
 >
 > Perhaps the worse is when they use a single ball bearing, because
 > a single sleeve, on a 10mm fan, can be deep enough to keep fan
 > more stable, and if given enough lubricant, can have a good
 > service life, but apparently 1/100th of a cent worth of lube is
 > even too much to ask... which is why I don't even bother
 > anymore, none of my motherboards or video cards have their
 > original 'sinks on them except a few Asus, after removing 'sink,
 > lapping, and using thermal compound.
 >
 > Since your present 'sink does have a removable clip, might it be
 > possible to use that clip on a Zalman like this one:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://store1.yimg.com/I/svcompucycle_1807_92442713</font" target="_blank">http://store1.yimg.com/I/svcompucycle_1807_92442713</font</a>>
 > (not sure if that link will work, they stripped file extension
 > off of it).
 > It was from this page:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.svcompucycle.com/zanoco.html</font</a>>
 >
 > You could also look around at electronics surplus 'sites for
 > something similar to the following, but with smaller dimensions:
 >
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=270&item=HS-70&type=store" target="_blank">http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=270&item=H...0&type=</a>
 >
 > From the poor pictures I saw of your board, the NB clip looks
 > pretty thin, perhaps thin enough to slide inbetween the tines of
 > many 'sinks not really designed for that type of mounting?
 >
 > If you REALLY wanted to use epoxy, it might be better to put
 > thermal compound in the middle, something with good longevity
 > like a synthetic (arctic silver III, IV, Alumina or Ceramique)
 > and attach the perimeter of heatsink base to the northbridge's
 > PCB carrier with the epoxy, by using a lot more of it and putting
 > a small weight on the 'sink to make sure it bottoms out on the
 > northbridge while the epoxy sets, though this procedure could
 > require a lot of attention to detail to be sure the contact is
 > good, there's no do-overs with epoxy, once it's set you should
 > never try to remove the 'sink as it may easily tear half of the
 > component off the motherboard instead of releasing at the
 > 'sink-component epoxy bond... and of course your warranty is
 > void, LOL, which seems to be my primary goal most of the time but
 > you may have a different objective.
 >
 >

Wow! You have given me a whole pile of info here! I've been doing this kind
of thing for quite some time also, but it's always great to get a view from
an experienced tweaker. Just because I've built and rebuilt a bunch of
machines doesn't mean my way is always the best way!

As I was reading through your reply I remembered something that just made me
smack myself in the head. I have an unused PC Power and Cooling CPU-COOL for
a 386 sized processor. It's a sink and fan that has a nice thermally
conductive adhesive on the flat end. I'll bet it will fit pretty good on the
NB. I think I'm going to give it a try.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Abit AI7 - Yet another NB failure, but a different question