Advantages of Parallel Hz

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips The little lost angel <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in part:
> A PC that does not store any information... what good is it for?

Not that I wish to support the OP in any way, but a stateless
PC is a terminal, now AKA "Thin Client" or "Internet Appliance".
Information is stored on a server elsewhere, accessible everywhere.

I like Xterminals, but I'm a dinosaur and remember the Real
Thing: terminals that did X and you could log into the networked
machine[s]. Sort of like a VT220 doing graphics. They ran BOOTP
(iso DHCP) and TFTP to boot.

Now you'd want boot from flash and DHCP. The minicomp would be
a small box like a SohO router with SVGA out (only 2D required),
10/100baseT or wireless, a wall-wart for power, and USB or PS/2
for kbd/mse. Very tidy, very neat and very cheap. Add monitor,
kbd, mouse and network to run.

Hardware specs very similar to a SoHo router:
486-class CPU, 64 MB RAM, 64 MB FLASH. Tight Linux SW.

Onboard SSH would be a must, but a key design decision would be
whether to incorporate a browser client to the local X server. Doing
so would usually improve performance and always cut X-traffic. But
this would jeopardize making the box a stateless appliance. That
might depend on whether the box was tethered to a LAN server, or
expected to work standalone.

With software, you can do much the same thing to much more powerful
desktop and laptop machines using something like a Knoppix boot CD.

-- Robert
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

In comp.arch Robert Redelmeier <redelm.DeleteThis@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips The little lost angel <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in part:
> > A PC that does not store any information... what good is it for?

> Not that I wish to support the OP in any way, but a stateless
> PC is a terminal, now AKA "Thin Client" or "Internet Appliance".
> Information is stored on a server elsewhere, accessible everywhere.

> With software, you can do much the same thing to much more powerful
> desktop and laptop machines using something like a Knoppix boot CD.

And such an "Internet Terminal" system can be ideal for one's parents
or kids, or anyone else who wants a fool-proof easy-to-use computer
setup.

These days not only is the web almost the only application on the
Internet, but it's almost the only computing application. Give
someone a slightly older PC with no hard drive and a Knoppix or
Ubunto live Linux CD and they may be able to accomplish everything
they want to do through a web browser with no local persistent
store of any kind.

Something like Google's web application suite (gmail etc.) would
even let you do normal office application functions as well.

User gets confused? Makes a mistake? Gets a trojan/virus? Just
power cycle the box and the problem is gone. If it fails to boot
to the user's familliar starting state then it's a hardware problem.

"Push the reset button and try again" may be all the tech support
the user ever needs (though this training may turn out to be ill-
advised if you ever let them near a "real" computer

G.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On Thu, 03 May 2007 19:29:49 -0600, Donald
<Donald.DeleteThis@dontdoithere.com> wrote:


>I am not trying to shoot down your ideas, I just don't see anyone doing
>a real design with this idea.
>
>donald

You have realized the crux of the problem. Radium ignores
purpose, that any thought would need a useful gain to be
more than a wasteful folly.

Radium could have followed through with some research and
pitching these ideas to those who have an ability to
seriously contemplate, and possibly implement the ideas, but
instead is only wasting everyone's time with a random
thought then proclaiming "why don't we do this" as if
rejecting modern technology, finding it a problem that needs
resolved, but wouldn't be when technology allowed, was a
reasonable use of time.

Radium lacks a method to achieve any goals, just random
thoughts which more than anything, demonstrate an inability
to use contemporary technology as well as everyone else.
Anyone could claim "oh but what if this or that was better
than it is", but those who actually drive innovation and
progress, do so leveraging the tech that IS available to do
so instead of only finding fault in it.

The funny part is when basic concepts ARE already possible
today, anyone with a thick enough wallet can build a system
without fans or mechanical hard drives. Radiun pitches
this as if it is some new thought but without the key
details of implementation others already follow, if/when
they find it a reasonable alternative, which isn't very
often because when all is said and done, mechanical failures
are managable and can be planned for, and beyond hard
drives, can be, through competent system design, assumed to
be outside the viable lifespan of the system.

Unfortunately, everyone and their brother fancies themselves
to be competent system integrators, but when it comes down
to finer details, suddenly cost often matters more than
lifespan, then only LATER does one claim "it's a problem".
The problem was usually following time-tested strategies
instead of seeing a fault and making random theories instead
of comparing how the system(s) with faults deviated from
those that didn't have same faults.

It is a wilderness out there, plenty of shady businesses
selling parts in the computer biz that are not suitable for
longer term use. Experience and discrimination, not random
rejection of contemorary tech, allows most people to find a
happy medium, but Radium has yet to find that medium and
instead of accepting that Radium has more to learn, Radium
instead drifts off on tangents which are essentially excuses
for why Radium can't manage to use contemporary tech.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On May 4, 2:09 am, jasen <j....TakeThisOut@free.net.nz> wrote:
> On 2007-05-03, MooseFET <kensm....TakeThisOut@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Given this you can burn a lot of CPU time figuring out exactly what
> > F(I) is. With a 3 phase clock, you only need the list, the program to
> > call the F(I) and a copy of the compiler. You simply invert the C and
> > B clock lines and then look at source code for F(I) to find out what
> > the function is. A great deal of energy is saved by doing this.
>
> LOL!
>
> maybe that'd be possible ifthe computer only did reversible operations,
> but a computer like that is either useless or trivial.
>
> What you propose is like trying to run a printer in reverse to recycle
> paper.

Darn! Before I even got the patent written, someone else thinks of
it.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On May 4, 12:50 am, kony <s... RemoveThis @spam.com> wrote:
[....]
> The funny part is when basic concepts ARE already possible
> today, anyone with a thick enough wallet can build a system
> without fans or mechanical hard drives.

My ZX-81 had neither and booted way faster than any Windoze machine
does.

These days, a few gig of FLASH is well with the budget. A µPD448012
RAM or two would give enough memory to run reasonable applications.
Today, a "PC" could be made that needed no fan or disks and was low
cost. It could do everything most users need a PC to do. It could
come preinstalled with FreeCell, a Web browser, some email program and
an image of the blue screen of death. That last one is to ensure that
most users never realize that this isn't a full up PC running Windows.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On 2007-05-03, MooseFET <kensmith.TakeThisOut@rahul.net> wrote:
>
> Given this you can burn a lot of CPU time figuring out exactly what
> F(I) is. With a 3 phase clock, you only need the list, the program to
> call the F(I) and a copy of the compiler. You simply invert the C and
> B clock lines and then look at source code for F(I) to find out what
> the function is. A great deal of energy is saved by doing this.

LOL!

maybe that'd be possible ifthe computer only did reversible operations,
but a computer like that is either useless or trivial.

What you propose is like trying to run a printer in reverse to recycle
paper.

Bye.
Jasen
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On Thu, 03 May 2007 23:36:59 +0000, Gavin Scott wrote:

> In comp.arch Robert Redelmeier <redelm.RemoveThis@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips The little lost angel <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in part:
>> > A PC that does not store any information... what good is it for?
>
>> Not that I wish to support the OP in any way, but a stateless
>> PC is a terminal, now AKA "Thin Client" or "Internet Appliance".
>> Information is stored on a server elsewhere, accessible everywhere.
>
>> With software, you can do much the same thing to much more powerful
>> desktop and laptop machines using something like a Knoppix boot CD.
>
> And such an "Internet Terminal" system can be ideal for one's parents
> or kids, or anyone else who wants a fool-proof easy-to-use computer
> setup.
>
> These days not only is the web almost the only application on the
> Internet, but it's almost the only computing application. Give
> someone a slightly older PC with no hard drive and a Knoppix or
> Ubunto live Linux CD and they may be able to accomplish everything
> they want to do through a web browser with no local persistent
> store of any kind.
>
> Something like Google's web application suite (gmail etc.) would
> even let you do normal office application functions as well.
>
> User gets confused? Makes a mistake? Gets a trojan/virus? Just
> power cycle the box and the problem is gone. If it fails to boot
> to the user's familliar starting state then it's a hardware problem.
>
> "Push the reset button and try again" may be all the tech support
> the user ever needs (though this training may turn out to be ill-
> advised if you ever let them near a "real" computer
>
> G.

http://www.ltsp.org/
Linux terminal server project. Seems like a step backwards but certainly
solves many of the usual support problems. Etherboot or Intel PXE for the
terminals is a possibility if the hardware supports it or could boot off
a usb disk or flash card.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

Radium wrote:

>This PC is built in such a way that it freshly generates the correct
>electric signals ["on the fly"] instead of playing them back from its
>ROM chips.
>
>There are sets of instructions stored in ROMs. In the case of most PC,
>these instructions load before the CPU "knows" it has a hard drive or
>other peripheral devices. However, in my dream PC, those instructions
>be generated in real-time instead of storing them.
>
>To put it simply, what I am describing is a PC that does not need to
>store any information because all of the signal codings for the info
>is generated in real-time.

Generated from what? Pixie dust?

Please explain *in detail* how the first three such instructions
are generated.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On May 4, 6:50 am, inva... DeleteThis @example.com wrote:

> Radium wrote:

> >This PC is built in such a way that it freshly generates the correct
> >electric signals ["on the fly"] instead of playing them back from its
> >ROM chips.
>
> >There are sets of instructions stored in ROMs. In the case of most PC,
> >these instructions load before the CPU "knows" it has a hard drive or
> >other peripheral devices. However, in my dream PC, those instructions
> >be generated in real-time instead of storing them.
>
> >To put it simply, what I am describing is a PC that does not need to
> >store any information because all of the signal codings for the info
> >is generated in real-time.

> Generated from what? Pixie dust?
>
> Please explain *in detail* how the first three such instructions
> are generated.

Digital electrical generators. Similar to hardware digital tone
generators except it produces digital electric signals corresponding
to data other than tones. It's a hard-wired PC. Read the Wiki-quotes
and my responses to them.

quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode :

"Each machine instruction (add, shift, move) was implemented directly
with circuitry. This provided fast performance, but as instruction
sets grew more complex, hard-wired instruction sets became more
difficult to design and debug."

I still prefer the "hard-wired instruction sets"

"a bug could often be fixed by replacing a portion of the microprogram
rather than by changes being made to hardware logic and wiring."

But I still prefer the "hardware logic and wiring".
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On 3 May 2007 16:28:30 -0700, Radium <glucegen1.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 3, 11:20 am, a?n?g?...@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little
>lost angel) wrote:
>
>> On 2 May 2007 17:39:20 -0700, Radium <gluceg....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >This PC is built in such a way that it freshly generates the correct
>> >electric signals ["on the fly"] instead of playing them back from its
>> >ROM chips.
>>
>> And how does it know how to generate the correct signals?
>
>It's built that way.
>
>How does SB16's FM synth "know" how to generate its FM signals? Much
>in the same way.

So in other words, your machine that does not store data will now have
to store data about instruments?


>> In other words, your system is not upgradable and has to live with
>> whatever bugs there are for the entire "useful" life of the system
>> since everything's hardwired?
>
>Well, the system could be made without bugs. Right?

Well, if you truly believe in that, then I would have to say you're
delusional


>Moreover, upgrades are possible and stored in the RAM chips I
>described above.

So again tihs PC that does not need to store any information has to
store upgrades information.

>> >To put it simply, what I am describing is a PC that does not need to
>> >store any information because all of the signal codings for the info
>> >is generated in real-time.
>
>> A PC that does not store any information... what good is it for?
>
>It does store info in the RAM chips.

But you said it doesn't need to store any information.

>My point is, parallel-Hz and "parallel bits" are not to be confused
>with each other.

Ok then what's the practical implication/advantage/whatever of what
you're proposing?

--
A Lost Angel, fallen from heaven
Lost in dreams, Lost in aspirations,
Lost to the world, Lost to myself
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

The little lost angel wrote:

> Ok then what's the practical implication/advantage/whatever of what
> you're proposing?

There is none. YHBT His posts are even blocked from appearing on
Supernews. They didn't used to be, that was until the flood anyway.
Hmmmmmmm........
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On May 4, 8:41 am, a?n?g?...@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little
lost angel) wrote:

> On 3 May 2007 16:28:30 -0700, Radium <gluceg... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> >On May 3, 11:20 am, a?n?g?...@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little
> >lost angel) wrote:

> >> On 2 May 2007 17:39:20 -0700, Radium <gluceg... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> >> >This PC is built in such a way that it freshly generates the correct
> >> >electric signals ["on the fly"] instead of playing them back from its
> >> >ROM chips.

> >> And how does it know how to generate the correct signals?

> >It's built that way.

> >How does SB16's FM synth "know" how to generate its FM signals? Much
> >in the same way.

> So in other words, your machine that does not store data will now have
> to store data about instruments?

No.

> >> In other words, your system is not upgradable and has to live with
> >> whatever bugs there are for the entire "useful" life of the system
> >> since everything's hardwired?

> >Well, the system could be made without bugs. Right?

> Well, if you truly believe in that, then I would have to say you're
> delusional
>
> >Moreover, upgrades are possible and stored in the RAM chips I
> >described above.

> So again tihs PC that does not need to store any information has to
> store upgrades information.

Yes, it stores info in the form of RAM. It does not need ROM, though.

However, my dream PC does have the ability to write/read ROM in the
form of optical discs [e.g. CDs/DVDs].

> >> >To put it simply, what I am describing is a PC that does not need to
> >> >store any information because all of the signal codings for the info
> >> >is generated in real-time.
>
> >> A PC that does not store any information... what good is it for?
>
> >It does store info in the RAM chips.
>
> But you said it doesn't need to store any information.

Sorry. I meant to say, it does not store any ROM [except for optical
discs].

What would normally be stored in ROM, my PC generates in real-time.

The RAM chips store what would normally be stored in the magnetic
platters of an HDD.

> >My point is, parallel-Hz and "parallel bits" are not to be confused
> >with each other.
>
> Ok then what's the practical implication/advantage/whatever of what
> you're proposing?

As I said before, parallel-Hz allows massively-serial devices to
operate at extremely high clock rates without needing any cooling
equipment.
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz 

On May 4, 5:32 pm, "Bob Myers" <nospample... DeleteThis @address.invalid> wrote:

> Yes, you've SAID that before, but you have yet to give
> any indication at all that it means anything.

How does it not mean anything?
 >> Stay informed about: Advantages of Parallel Hz