Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da..

 > Just curious. How did you know the cooler damaged your chip?
Simple: touching the heatsink I've heard a sound similar to the sound that
you make when you rub a piece of glass against sand.
Have you seen how BIG is the heatsink on the Sapphire Radeon 9600??
And that big heatsink simply cannot be placed firmly against the die using
only two small piece of plastic.


 > If it's running fine, you had to pry it off to see. If so, perhaps you
were
 > the one to damage it.
Yes, but only touching once the heatsink (who hasn't touched once the
heatsink, and by saying "touched" I don't mean that I've taken the videocard
BY the heatsink) doesn't automatically imply that I've ruined the chip.
If so it means that the card is mechanically bad engineered.


 > Draw any conclusions you want about Sapphire, but they are ATIs biggest
 > partner and make more of the cards ATI sells under its own brand name than
 > anybody else.
Frankly I don't care how big or not a brand is: I care for quality and
robustness.

 > I've had three of them, and had the coolers on and off all of them with no
 > such problem. They cut corners to keep costs down, but they perform well.
Well you're lucky. Probably the Sapphires you own have the heatsink glued to
the chip via a thermoconductive epoxy (in that case rub against the chip is
avoided).

 > That's my definition of good engineering. You're certainly entitled to a
 > different opinion.
That's not a definition of good engineering: Pentiums IV are GOOD
engineered, their type of heatsink (the way they are mounted and the quality
of construction) are good engineered, nVidias are good engineered.
Old proper Atis are good engineered (infact I'm very happy of my Ati Radeon
7500).

Tell me one thing: why Ati stopped to make the entire video board and relied
to 3rd part manufacturing only for Europe?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da.. 

"Jopo75" <nospam RemoveThis @nospam.no> wrote in message
news:gMSrb.2570$9_.114080@news1.tin.it...
  > > Just curious. How did you know the cooler damaged your chip?
 > Simple: touching the heatsink I've heard a sound similar to the sound that
 > you make when you rub a piece of glass against sand.
 > Have you seen how BIG is the heatsink on the Sapphire Radeon 9600??
 > And that big heatsink simply cannot be placed firmly against the die using
 > only two small piece of plastic.
 >
 >
  > > If it's running fine, you had to pry it off to see. If so, perhaps you
 > were
  > > the one to damage it.
 > Yes, but only touching once the heatsink (who hasn't touched once the
 > heatsink, and by saying "touched" I don't mean that I've taken the
videocard
 > BY the heatsink) doesn't automatically imply that I've ruined the chip.
 > If so it means that the card is mechanically bad engineered.
 >
 >
  > > Draw any conclusions you want about Sapphire, but they are ATIs biggest
  > > partner and make more of the cards ATI sells under its own brand name
than
  > > anybody else.
 > Frankly I don't care how big or not a brand is: I care for quality and
 > robustness.
 >
  > > I've had three of them, and had the coolers on and off all of them with
no
  > > such problem. They cut corners to keep costs down, but they perform
well.
 > Well you're lucky. Probably the Sapphires you own have the heatsink glued
to
 > the chip via a thermoconductive epoxy (in that case rub against the chip
is
 > avoided).
 >
  > > That's my definition of good engineering. You're certainly entitled to a
  > > different opinion.
 > That's not a definition of good engineering: Pentiums IV are GOOD
 > engineered, their type of heatsink (the way they are mounted and the
quality
 > of construction) are good engineered, nVidias are good engineered.
 > Old proper Atis are good engineered (infact I'm very happy of my Ati
Radeon
 > 7500).
 >
 > Tell me one thing: why Ati stopped to make the entire video board and
relied
 > to 3rd part manufacturing only for Europe?

I don't think ATI ever manufactured ANY of the Radeon series sold under the
ATI brand name. Those have all be done by Asian companies. They are all made
to ATI design and spec, and even the OEM cards sold by Sapphire and others
have to use a minimum reference design.

Sorry you feel you got a bad one, QA slips happen. But I think you're
reaching to conclude that Sapphire is second-rate because you discovered a
chipped core when you pried the cooler off.

The fact that no one in this group has agreed with you in the multiple
threads you've started should tell you something.

Feel free to buy another brand next time. I'll feel free to recommend
Sapphire cards based on my personal experience with several of them and the
good vibes from friends I've suggested them to.

Opinions are like snowflakes, there are no two exactly alike.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da.. 

Uhhh.. do you actually know what a die is? What you're refering to is
actually the ceramic substrait that the die is inside of (acutally in
this case it appears the die is attached to the substrait below and
there is a ceramic cap on top of it). Typically the ceramic can be
significantly damaged and the chip will still function. But after
reviewing the pictures that you show, it doesn't appear to be cause by
vibrational friction as you are proposing. What it appears is that
someone lifted on side of the heat sink diagonally across the chip's
ceramic causing the corner to either chip off or be scraped off. If
it was vibrational damage you would see more consistant wearing of the
ATI silk screen on top of the ceramic; but this is not shown in your
photos.

Conclusion. You did the damage yourself; it does not look like what
you claimed (bad heat sink design / connection).


"Jopo75" <nospam.TakeThisOut@nospam.no> wrote in message news:<O%Rrb.2304$9_.100524@news1.tin.it>...
 > Yeah, ad subject says, my heatsink has damaged the die of the Ati chip
 > beneath .
 > See <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon/pcolor-1.html" target="_blank">www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon/pcolor-1.html</a> for a visual
 > explaination of my accident (see the pics at the middle-bottom of that
 > page).
 > My card is running fine but I'm wondering why Ati has licensed such a sloppy
 > manufacturer to produce that bad engineered card : on the 9600 the heatsink
 > is too way big and too heavy to being placed on the chip via two ultrasmall
 > plastic spacers (like those on old mobos).
 > Take nVidia for example: all nVidia chips are virtually mechanically
 > unbreakable (like all Pentiums IV), not quite like Ati's: infact nVidia's
 > haven't the open die touching the heatsink.
 > Remember how many Amd Athlons got permanently damaged because the open die
 > touches directly the heatsink??
 > Bad engineering.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da.. 

On 11 Nov 2003 21:57:40 -0800
pinball.RemoveThis@pottsland.com (Cyclone Owner) wrote:

 > Uhhh.. do you actually know what a die is? What you're refering to is
 > actually the ceramic substrait that the die is inside of (acutally in
 > this case it appears the die is attached to the substrait below and
 > there is a ceramic cap on top of it). Typically the ceramic can be
 > significantly damaged and the chip will still function.

With many contemporary chips the the die is exposed, with the pure
silicon base on which the circuits were grown pointing up. The reason
this is done is that that approach gives the lowest thermal resistance
in the cooling solution. The Athlons are the best known chips
constructed in this manner, and cracking the die was a fairly common
installation error until AMD started putting some bumpers on the chip
to ensure that the heat sink went on level--occasionally someone still
manages to crack the die. The ATIs appear to be similar in construction
to the current generation Athlons, which means that that little black
rectangle in the middle of the substrate _is_ the die. Further, the
substrate is often a fiberglass PCB with current designs.

However some of the immense heat sinks used with Athlons are secured by
a spring-clip to the skinny little tabs on the socket--if the mass of
the heat sink is not a problem with Athlons, which it generally is
not, then the relatively tiny one used on ATI boards is most assuredly
not going to be a problem when secured using the drilled-through
mounting holes in the circuit board.

Intel and nvidia put a metal heat spreader on top of the die that serves
to protect it from hamfisted installers, however it also adds another
layer of thermal resistance to the cooling. AMD has started doing the
same thing with their 64-bit chips.

 > But after
 > reviewing the pictures that you show, it doesn't appear to be cause by
 > vibrational friction as you are proposing. What it appears is that
 > someone lifted on side of the heat sink diagonally across the chip's
 > ceramic causing the corner to either chip off or be scraped off. If
 > it was vibrational damage you would see more consistant wearing of the
 > ATI silk screen on top of the ceramic; but this is not shown in your
 > photos.
 >
 > Conclusion. You did the damage yourself; it does not look like what
 > you claimed (bad heat sink design / connection).
 >
 >
 > "Jopo75" <nospam.RemoveThis@nospam.no> wrote in message
 > news:<O%Rrb.2304$9_.100524@news1.tin.it>...
  > > Yeah, ad subject says, my heatsink has damaged the die of the Ati
  > > chip beneath .
  > > See <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon/pcolor-1.html" target="_blank">www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon/pcolor-1.html</a> for a visual
  > > explaination of my accident (see the pics at the middle-bottom of
  > > that page).
  > > My card is running fine but I'm wondering why Ati has licensed such
  > > a sloppy manufacturer to produce that bad engineered card : on the
  > > 9600 the heatsink is too way big and too heavy to being placed on
  > > the chip via two ultrasmall plastic spacers (like those on old
  > > mobos). Take nVidia for example: all nVidia chips are virtually
  > > mechanically unbreakable (like all Pentiums IV), not quite like
  > > Ati's: infact nVidia's haven't the open die touching the heatsink.
  > > Remember how many Amd Athlons got permanently damaged because the
  > > open die touches directly the heatsink??
  > > Bad engineering.


--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da.. 

On 21 Nov 2003 23:45:27 -0800
pinball RemoveThis @pottsland.com (Cyclone Owner) wrote:

  > > With many contemporary chips the the die is exposed, with the pure
  > > silicon base on which the circuits were grown pointing up.
 >
 > <BIG BIG SNIP>
 >
 > Yeah, I understand that 100%, but I was refering to this case. If you
 > look at the pictures, the die is not exposed. But the way he was
 > talking about it, you would think that it is. First thing I did was
 > to look at his pictures and you can quickly determine the die is not
 > exposed.

Gee, that sure looks like an exposed die to me. What leads you to
believe that it is not?

 > As far as I know AMD is the most popular manufacturer using the
 > exposed die. It does tend to open a whole new can of worms when it
 > comes to the general public (I wonder how many were cracked during
 > installation and returned as defective). The bumpers help, but
 > doesn't emlimate the issues.
 >
 > Dave


--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da.. 

 > With many contemporary chips the the die is exposed, with the pure
 > silicon base on which the circuits were grown pointing up.

<BIG BIG SNIP>

Yeah, I understand that 100%, but I was refering to this case. If you
look at the pictures, the die is not exposed. But the way he was
talking about it, you would think that it is. First thing I did was
to look at his pictures and you can quickly determine the die is not
exposed.

As far as I know AMD is the most popular manufacturer using the
exposed die. It does tend to open a whole new can of worms when it
comes to the general public (I wonder how many were cracked during
installation and returned as defective). The bumpers help, but
doesn't emlimate the issues.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Bad engineering from Sapphire: Radeon 9600 the heatsink da..