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Next: I hope I didn't damage my HD3870...
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:04 pm
Post subject: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees!
Archived from groups: alt>comp>hardware (more info?)
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System is Pentium D 925 3GHz D0 revision, ECS Alhena5 mainboard with
latest BIOS update. (Compaq-Presario SR5020AN but swapped the Celeron
3.33GHz for a P-D about 5 months ago) it has worked fine ever since.
This got me by surprise - my one computer was in sleep mode, as it
often is, and when i moved the mouse to wake it, nothing happened, it
turned on but never resumed windows.
So I reset it and suddenly the CPU fan failure warning came up,
initially the fan spun up but then just stopped a few seconds into
POST. According to BIOS, CPU was -128 degrees C. Obviously an error.
So I held a molex powered fan over the CPU fan to at least get some
air flowing, restarted, and overrode the CPU fan failure message and
started Windows Vista. Once at the desktop, SpeedFan started as usual,
I have been using it for about 3 weeks to adjust fan speeds and so on
to cool the PC a bit more efficiently. It has always worked fine.
According to speedfan, the CPU was at -128. I manually set CPU fan
speed to 100%, and it spun up! So now I can at least use windows
without holding a molex fan.
Now, the second strange thing - it seems part of speedstep has also
failed as CPU switches from 3 to 2.4GHz but stays at a voltage of
1.324v where usually at idle it is 1.20v
Thirdly, according to speedfan the +3.3v is actually 4.08v, +5v is
6.85v, +12v is a massive 16.32v while -12v is 4.01v ?
Fourth, CPUID's HWMonitor can no longer read CPU temp, Case temp, or
ANY of the voltages!
As long as I keep speedfan set on "Software Controlled" then I can
manually set the fan speed - the second I put it onto
"SmartGuardian" (the original setting) the fans stop - due most likely
to a CPU temp of -128 C !!!
Whats going on? Could it be that the Pentium D's temperature and\or
voltage sensor is broken? Or is it the mainboard's hardware sensor, an
ITE8718F.
Help would be much appreciated, as I have no idea whats going on now.
Never had this sort of error before. And it has been working fine for
months without even one crash or hang. |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Occasionally, parts do not get soldered properly to the motherboard.
> Sometimes the legs on a chip are "dry", or there is an intermittent
> connection. Using a strong light and some magnification, inspect
> the ITE8718F in the corner.
>
> (upper right hand corner of the picture here)http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?docname=c00864922&...
Yeah I have looked at the ITE chip already, it has like hundreds of
little L shaded legs, i cannot tell if they are soldered on correctly
or not, it has been fine for about 6 or 8 months, been using the
Pentium D for 5 of those, does this chip control CPU voltages as well,
or is it only fan speeds and temperature sensors?
If it is broken, I suppose the only solution would be a new
motherboard, right? |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Would flashing the bios with the current version help, or would it not
flash as it is already the current version? I cant believe how out of
range the voltages are, I mean 16v for the +12v lines, this is way
over spec - unless the ITE chip is faulty and not sensing them
correctly - because the PC works fine, no crashes or hangs, even with
the voltages reported as so out of range. Makes me think, it must be
the ITE chip - as I said, I wonder what all the ITE chip does actually. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Well - I removed all AC power, unclipped the mobo battery, and left it
for about 30 mins, reseated the battery, connected the AC and now all
of a sudden everything is all fine again, reading the CPU temp
correctly, voltages are back to normal, fans are fine, very strange, I
think I will do a full backup though just in case it goes again. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 2482
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AdenOne wrote:
> System is Pentium D 925 3GHz D0 revision, ECS Alhena5 mainboard with
> latest BIOS update. (Compaq-Presario SR5020AN but swapped the Celeron
> 3.33GHz for a P-D about 5 months ago) it has worked fine ever since.
>
> This got me by surprise - my one computer was in sleep mode, as it
> often is, and when i moved the mouse to wake it, nothing happened, it
> turned on but never resumed windows.
>
> So I reset it and suddenly the CPU fan failure warning came up,
> initially the fan spun up but then just stopped a few seconds into
> POST. According to BIOS, CPU was -128 degrees C. Obviously an error.
>
> So I held a molex powered fan over the CPU fan to at least get some
> air flowing, restarted, and overrode the CPU fan failure message and
> started Windows Vista. Once at the desktop, SpeedFan started as usual,
> I have been using it for about 3 weeks to adjust fan speeds and so on
> to cool the PC a bit more efficiently. It has always worked fine.
> According to speedfan, the CPU was at -128. I manually set CPU fan
> speed to 100%, and it spun up! So now I can at least use windows
> without holding a molex fan.
>
> Now, the second strange thing - it seems part of speedstep has also
> failed as CPU switches from 3 to 2.4GHz but stays at a voltage of
> 1.324v where usually at idle it is 1.20v
>
> Thirdly, according to speedfan the +3.3v is actually 4.08v, +5v is
> 6.85v, +12v is a massive 16.32v while -12v is 4.01v ?
>
> Fourth, CPUID's HWMonitor can no longer read CPU temp, Case temp, or
> ANY of the voltages!
>
> As long as I keep speedfan set on "Software Controlled" then I can
> manually set the fan speed - the second I put it onto
> "SmartGuardian" (the original setting) the fans stop - due most likely
> to a CPU temp of -128 C !!!
>
> Whats going on? Could it be that the Pentium D's temperature and\or
> voltage sensor is broken? Or is it the mainboard's hardware sensor, an
> ITE8718F.
>
> Help would be much appreciated, as I have no idea whats going on now.
> Never had this sort of error before. And it has been working fine for
> months without even one crash or hang.
Occasionally, parts do not get soldered properly to the motherboard.
Sometimes the legs on a chip are "dry", or there is an intermittent
connection. Using a strong light and some magnification, inspect
the ITE8718F in the corner.
(upper right hand corner of the picture here)
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?docname=c00864922&c...s&dlc=e
Paul >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 31, 5:37 pm, Paul <nos... RemoveThis @needed.com> wrote:
> AdenOne wrote:
> > Well - I removed all AC power, unclipped the mobo battery, and left it
> > for about 30 mins, reseated the battery, connected the AC and now all
> > of a sudden everything is all fine again, reading the CPU temp
> > correctly, voltages are back to normal, fans are fine, very strange, I
> > think I will do a full backup though just in case it goes again.
>
> I don't see how the two are related. (CMOS battery versus misbehaving
> SuperI/O chip hardware monitor.) Just another mystery to ponder 
>
> There is an electrical connection between the battery and the hardware monitor.
> The VBAT pin on the SuperI/O, provides the ability for the SuperI/O
> to measure the CMOS battery voltage. But that isn't typically
> shown in hardware monitoring programs. And I don't see a good
> mechanism, for it to upset things.
>
> I think portions of the CMOS memory have checksum protection. A
> checksum is not bulletproof, but if there was a problem with the
> data contained in the CMOS memory, you might see an error message
> during the BIOS POST.
>
> So what we know, is the battery removal fixed it, but as yet, no
> plausible theory as to how the battery can upset the chip.
>
> Does the CMOS battery run down and need frequent replacement ?
>
> Does the computer lose its BIOS settings (other than when you remove
> the battery) ?
>
> Paul
No. It is less than a year old, has a July 2007 BIOS, battery is fine,
the only thing I can think of is that SpeedFan v4.33 upset the CMOS
settings somehow - I did not fiddle with voltages or anything, only
the fan speed settings. I tried using the CMOS_CLR jumper, but it did
not work, only by removing the battery and leaving for a while did it
work. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 31, 6:21 pm, Paul <nos... RemoveThis @needed.com> wrote:
> AdenOne wrote:
>
> > No. It is less than a year old, has a July 2007 BIOS, battery is fine,
> > the only thing I can think of is that SpeedFan v4.33 upset the CMOS
> > settings somehow - I did not fiddle with voltages or anything, only
> > the fan speed settings. I tried using the CMOS_CLR jumper, but it did
> > not work, only by removing the battery and leaving for a while did it
> > work.
>
> Well, the only connection between the two, is the connection of
> the battery to the VBAT pin. And I don't understand how that would
> break anything. Unless a couple things are shorting together
> somewhere.
>
> Paul
Yes, thats right, but would the CMOS not store some sort of info about
voltages, SpeedStep, temperatures related to the SmartGuardian feature? >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 2482
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:37 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AdenOne wrote:
> Well - I removed all AC power, unclipped the mobo battery, and left it
> for about 30 mins, reseated the battery, connected the AC and now all
> of a sudden everything is all fine again, reading the CPU temp
> correctly, voltages are back to normal, fans are fine, very strange, I
> think I will do a full backup though just in case it goes again.
I don't see how the two are related. (CMOS battery versus misbehaving
SuperI/O chip hardware monitor.) Just another mystery to ponder
There is an electrical connection between the battery and the hardware monitor.
The VBAT pin on the SuperI/O, provides the ability for the SuperI/O
to measure the CMOS battery voltage. But that isn't typically
shown in hardware monitoring programs. And I don't see a good
mechanism, for it to upset things.
I think portions of the CMOS memory have checksum protection. A
checksum is not bulletproof, but if there was a problem with the
data contained in the CMOS memory, you might see an error message
during the BIOS POST.
So what we know, is the battery removal fixed it, but as yet, no
plausible theory as to how the battery can upset the chip.
Does the CMOS battery run down and need frequent replacement ?
Does the computer lose its BIOS settings (other than when you remove
the battery) ?
Paul >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:06 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 31, 7:48 pm, Paul <nos... RemoveThis @needed.com> wrote:
> AdenOne wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 6:21 pm, Paul <nos... RemoveThis @needed.com> wrote:
> >> AdenOne wrote:
>
> >>> No. It is less than a year old, has a July 2007 BIOS, battery is fine,
> >>> the only thing I can think of is that SpeedFan v4.33 upset the CMOS
> >>> settings somehow - I did not fiddle with voltages or anything, only
> >>> the fan speed settings. I tried using the CMOS_CLR jumper, but it did
> >>> not work, only by removing the battery and leaving for a while did it
> >>> work.
> >> Well, the only connection between the two, is the connection of
> >> the battery to the VBAT pin. And I don't understand how that would
> >> break anything. Unless a couple things are shorting together
> >> somewhere.
>
> >> Paul
>
> > Yes, thats right, but would the CMOS not store some sort of info about
> > voltages, SpeedStep, temperatures related to the SmartGuardian feature?
>
> Sure, the BIOS settings are saved. I don't know what format is used
> for the data, or which particular bytes are used. Some of the bytes
> at the beginning of the CMOS RAM have standard definitions.
>
> You already explained though, that the temp reading as -128, that
> the Smart Guardian screws up because the temperature reads so low,
> so that doesn't imply a Smart Guardian setting is corrupted. Merely
> that the Smart Guardian takes the low temperature into its algorithm,
> and determines that the fan can be turned off.
>
> I'm not sure exactly how Speedstep info is obtained. Yes, there
> is a high multiplier and a low multiplier. Maybe the details are
> inside the processor, as privileged registers or something. I doubt
> those details would need to be stored. A flag that says whether
> Speedstep is to be used or not should be stored in the CMOS.
>
> But the thing is, as I said before, the contents of the CMOS
> are protected by checksums. There is more than one checksum.
> If the checksum is bad, there should be an error message on
> the BIOS screen, and then the settings are returned to defaults.
> So if the CMOS RAM was corrupted, the checksum scheme should pick
> that up. I don't see a way of corrupting it over and over again,
> without it being eventually caught by the check during early
> POST.
>
> Could the Vcore voltage error, be a measurement error only ?
> And not an actual failure to program the correct voltage ?
>
> Paul
Well I think vCore was roughly correct, as at full load my CPU goes
from 1.200v all the way up to 1.346v, and the Pentium D is safe up to
about 1.400v. What was weird was that it stepped down to 2.4GHz, but
did not decrease the voltage accordingly.
I agree with you checksum issue, it should have picked it up. I still
think the ITE chip is somehow to blame for all of this weird stuff.
The only anomaly still present is that CPU-Z and HWMonitor, both from
CPUID, take much longer than usual to load, instead of a few seconds
its like minutes now, and the only reason I can think is that they are
having difficulty reading SMBus information or something. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 2482
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:21 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AdenOne wrote:
>
> No. It is less than a year old, has a July 2007 BIOS, battery is fine,
> the only thing I can think of is that SpeedFan v4.33 upset the CMOS
> settings somehow - I did not fiddle with voltages or anything, only
> the fan speed settings. I tried using the CMOS_CLR jumper, but it did
> not work, only by removing the battery and leaving for a while did it
> work.
Well, the only connection between the two, is the connection of
the battery to the VBAT pin. And I don't understand how that would
break anything. Unless a couple things are shorting together
somewhere.
Paul >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 2482
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AdenOne wrote:
> On Jan 31, 6:21 pm, Paul <nos... DeleteThis @needed.com> wrote:
>> AdenOne wrote:
>>
>>> No. It is less than a year old, has a July 2007 BIOS, battery is fine,
>>> the only thing I can think of is that SpeedFan v4.33 upset the CMOS
>>> settings somehow - I did not fiddle with voltages or anything, only
>>> the fan speed settings. I tried using the CMOS_CLR jumper, but it did
>>> not work, only by removing the battery and leaving for a while did it
>>> work.
>> Well, the only connection between the two, is the connection of
>> the battery to the VBAT pin. And I don't understand how that would
>> break anything. Unless a couple things are shorting together
>> somewhere.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Yes, thats right, but would the CMOS not store some sort of info about
> voltages, SpeedStep, temperatures related to the SmartGuardian feature?
Sure, the BIOS settings are saved. I don't know what format is used
for the data, or which particular bytes are used. Some of the bytes
at the beginning of the CMOS RAM have standard definitions.
You already explained though, that the temp reading as -128, that
the Smart Guardian screws up because the temperature reads so low,
so that doesn't imply a Smart Guardian setting is corrupted. Merely
that the Smart Guardian takes the low temperature into its algorithm,
and determines that the fan can be turned off.
I'm not sure exactly how Speedstep info is obtained. Yes, there
is a high multiplier and a low multiplier. Maybe the details are
inside the processor, as privileged registers or something. I doubt
those details would need to be stored. A flag that says whether
Speedstep is to be used or not should be stored in the CMOS.
But the thing is, as I said before, the contents of the CMOS
are protected by checksums. There is more than one checksum.
If the checksum is bad, there should be an error message on
the BIOS screen, and then the settings are returned to defaults.
So if the CMOS RAM was corrupted, the checksum scheme should pick
that up. I don't see a way of corrupting it over and over again,
without it being eventually caught by the check during early
POST.
Could the Vcore voltage error, be a measurement error only ?
And not an actual failure to program the correct voltage ?
Paul >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Nov 19, 2007
Posts: 170
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:04 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Somewhere on teh intarweb "AdenOne" typed:
> System is Pentium D 925 3GHz D0 revision, ECS Alhena5
ECS??? Why in the owrld would you have ECS?
> Never had this sort of error before. And it has been working fine for
> months without even one crash or hang.
Then you've been lucky. It seems it just ran out.
--
Shaun. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 2482
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:29 am
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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AdenOne wrote:
>
> The only anomaly still present is that CPU-Z and HWMonitor, both from
> CPUID, take much longer than usual to load, instead of a few seconds
> its like minutes now, and the only reason I can think is that they are
> having difficulty reading SMBus information or something.
I think the datasheet for 8718 says it connects to LPC bus. That bus
is also used for flash chips sometimes as well. LPC stands for low pin
count, and the data part is perhaps 4 bits wide. If the clock on it
was 33MHz, then 16MB/sec might be an upper limit on the bus.
SMBUS (system management bus) would still be used for the DIMMs.
One advantage of the LPC bus, is there should no longer be the problem
with multiple monitoring programs, corrupting each other's SMBUS reads.
If the SMBUS was used, then the slow serial read of one program, could
be interrupted by an attempt to read the serial bus by another program.
The LPC operations are more likely to be atomic, so if you want
to run two monitor programs, it should work. The only time multiple
programs get in trouble, is when writing to registers. (For example,
it wouldn't be very good, to have two programs regularly changing
the fan RPM scaling register.)
Paul >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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External
Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 1, 3:29 am, Paul <nos....TakeThisOut@needed.com> wrote:
> AdenOne wrote:
>
> > The only anomaly still present is that CPU-Z and HWMonitor, both from
> > CPUID, take much longer than usual to load, instead of a few seconds
> > its like minutes now, and the only reason I can think is that they are
> > having difficulty reading SMBus information or something.
>
> I think the datasheet for 8718 says it connects to LPC bus. That bus
> is also used for flash chips sometimes as well. LPC stands for low pin
> count, and the data part is perhaps 4 bits wide. If the clock on it
> was 33MHz, then 16MB/sec might be an upper limit on the bus.
>
> SMBUS (system management bus) would still be used for the DIMMs.
>
> One advantage of the LPC bus, is there should no longer be the problem
> with multiple monitoring programs, corrupting each other's SMBUS reads.
> If the SMBUS was used, then the slow serial read of one program, could
> be interrupted by an attempt to read the serial bus by another program.
> The LPC operations are more likely to be atomic, so if you want
> to run two monitor programs, it should work. The only time multiple
> programs get in trouble, is when writing to registers. (For example,
> it wouldn't be very good, to have two programs regularly changing
> the fan RPM scaling register.)
>
> Paul
I see what you mean. I only use SpeedFan v4.33 to change fan speeds -
HWMonitor is used to verify temperatures or to check my GPU temp. It
does not transmit instructions to anything. By the way, since
restarting the PC last night, everything is fine and HWMonitor and CPU-
Z are starting as normal.
One strange thing is that my vCore at idle is now 1.184v - where as
before I never saw it at less than 1.200v; now i know its pretty close
and it is not causing issues so its fine with me. >> Stay informed about: Big problem - CPU says it is -128 degrees! |
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