Dual-channel PCI IDE card?

On or about 4 May 2008 02:21:41 GMT did Arno Wagner <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> dribble
thusly:

>Previously Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI.DeleteThis@dontearthlinklike.netspam> wrote:
>> I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>
>> And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
>> with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
>> speed-limiting.
>
>> For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
>> other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
>> If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
>> drive is paralyzed.
>
>> This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>
>> Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
>> cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>
>> So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?
>
>This sounds strange. Maybe your bottleneck is the driver instead?

I'm pretty sure it's the hardware. It's two IDE channels, but they're sharing
one bus connection, which I saw confirmed somewhere that was selling a Sil
0680 card.

>If not, I have made good experience with the Promise non-RAID
>cards. With one drive on each channel, you can even do
>softrware RAID on both drives without trouble.

I'll have a look at them. Thanks.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

I have no problems copying at 4X between DVD on the same Intel IDE channel.
That's 6MB/s, it should go faster. Are your applications using SPTI, not ASPI?

"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI RemoveThis @DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:pqvp14h2m643ojskvgs6im0bfkubsf9d1c@4ax.com...
>I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>
> And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
> with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
> speed-limiting.
>
> For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
> other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
> If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
> drive is paralyzed.
>
> This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>
> Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
> cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>
> So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Mike Ruskai wrote:
> I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>
> And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
> with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
> speed-limiting.
>
> For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
> other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
> If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
> drive is paralyzed.
>
> This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.

I know this is the low-tech solution, but why not just do a
store-and-burn? That way each drive will be run at different times, and
you won't have any data contention problems.

> Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
> cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>
> So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?

How about getting a SATA DVD burner? All SATA drives are their own
masters. DVD burners are cheaper than any external IDE controller solution.

Yousuf Khan
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

On or about Mon, 05 May 2008 11:46:30 -0400 did Yousuf Khan <bbbl67 RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
dribble thusly:

>Mike Ruskai wrote:
>> I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>>
>> And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
>> with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
>> speed-limiting.
>>
>> For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
>> other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
>> If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
>> drive is paralyzed.
>>
>> This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>
>I know this is the low-tech solution, but why not just do a
>store-and-burn? That way each drive will be run at different times, and
>you won't have any data contention problems.

I think you misunderstood. I don't mean reading from one and burning to the
other, I mean burning to both at the same time from either the same source
(when I want multiple copies of the same data), or two different sources.

I actually have three DVD drives, and I can burn to two at once, provided that
one is the burner attached to the motherboard's single IDE channel.

It's not infrequent that I'd want to burn three discs at a time, but I can't
due to the limitations of the controller.

>
>> Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
>> cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>>
>> So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?
>
>How about getting a SATA DVD burner? All SATA drives are their own
>masters. DVD burners are cheaper than any external IDE controller solution.

Last I looked, SATA ATAPI devices were problematic at best. And certainly
more expensive than an IDE controller, if I could find one that will work.

So far it's looking like those that might be suitably independent don't
support ATAPI devices (Highpoint Rocket 133), or should support them but
apparently don't, due to poor firmware (Promise Ultra 133TX2).

I even tried adding a single-channel PCIe-to-IDE adapter from StarTech, but it
was atrocious - transferred at about 1.6x max DVD speed, and made the entire
system jittery while doing so.

It's making me more and more annoyed that SCSI has been abandoned in the
burner market, since I could otherwise have easily attached all three drives
to a single adapter, each running at full speed.

It has been a while since I looked at SATA, however, so I'll revisit that
option.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

"Mike Ruskai" <BUTthannydI DeleteThis @DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote in message
news:jq6v14t5k6lmr6cej7n9rc7rbssjvjdfb5@4ax.com...
>
> I actually have three DVD drives, and I can burn to two at once, provided that
> one is the burner attached to the motherboard's single IDE channel.
>
> It's not infrequent that I'd want to burn three discs at a time, but I can't
> due to the limitations of the controller.

PCI Latency Tool may help.
Make sure no devices' latency is too high (cause bus hogging),
and that the IDE devices are similar (64 is a common value).
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Mike Ruskai wrote:
>> Mike Ruskai wrote:
>>> And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
>>> with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
>>> speed-limiting.
>>>
>>> For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
>>> other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
>>> If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
>>> drive is paralyzed.
>>>
>>> This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>> I know this is the low-tech solution, but why not just do a
>> store-and-burn? That way each drive will be run at different times, and
>> you won't have any data contention problems.
>
> I think you misunderstood. I don't mean reading from one and burning to the
> other, I mean burning to both at the same time from either the same source
> (when I want multiple copies of the same data), or two different sources.

Well, yes, above you had talked about one drive reading while ripping,
so it sounded like you were talking about reading and writing
simultaneously, not writing and writing. But then you talked about
writing and writing briefly later, so it sounded like it was a side issue.

Anyways, regardless, I've also occasionally tried to write to two drives
at the same time. It was a disaster for speed, though there were no
media errors in the final product, so it was relatively reliable.

>> How about getting a SATA DVD burner? All SATA drives are their own
>> masters. DVD burners are cheaper than any external IDE controller solution.
>
> Last I looked, SATA ATAPI devices were problematic at best. And certainly
> more expensive than an IDE controller, if I could find one that will work.

Well, I haven't heard of any problems with SATA burners, but I won't
doubt they may have had some in the past. You can pick up a SATA burner
for between $20-25 on Ebay.

Yousuf Khan
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Mike Ruskai wrote in news:jq6v14t5k6lmr6cej7n9rc7rbssjvjdfb5@4ax.com
> On or about Mon, 05 May 2008 11:46:30 -0400 did Yousuf Khan <bbbl67 DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
> dribble thusly:
>
> > Mike Ruskai wrote:
> > > I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
> > >
> > > And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
> > > with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
> > > speed-limiting.
> > >
> > > For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
> > > other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
> > > If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
> > > drive is paralyzed.
> > >
> > > This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
> >
> > I know this is the low-tech solution, but why not just do a
> > store-and-burn? That way each drive will be run at different times, and
> > you won't have any data contention problems.

> I think you misunderstood.

Oy, watch it bud, this is Yousuf you're talking to.
CSIPHS KOOK of the year award nominee.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Arno Wagner wrote:
>
> Previously Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI.DeleteThis@dontearthlinklike.netspam> wrote:
> > I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>
> > And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
> > with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
> > speed-limiting.
>
> > For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
> > other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
> > If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
> > drive is paralyzed.
>
> > This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>
> > Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
> > cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>
> > So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?
>
> This sounds strange. Maybe your bottleneck is the driver instead?
>
> If not, I have made good experience with the Promise non-RAID
> cards. With one drive on each channel, you can even do
> softrware RAID on both drives without trouble.
>
> Arno


Hello, Arno:

Are you implying that DVD drives can be RAIDed, perhaps? <g>


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur.DeleteThis@concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

On or about Tue, 06 May 2008 12:11:47 -0400 did Yousuf Khan <bbbl67 RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
dribble thusly:

>Anyways, regardless, I've also occasionally tried to write to two drives
>at the same time. It was a disaster for speed, though there were no
>media errors in the final product, so it was relatively reliable.

The trick is to either have a 8+ drive stripe, or use different spindles for
the two burns.

>>> How about getting a SATA DVD burner? All SATA drives are their own
>>> masters. DVD burners are cheaper than any external IDE controller solution.
>>
>> Last I looked, SATA ATAPI devices were problematic at best. And certainly
>> more expensive than an IDE controller, if I could find one that will work.
>
>Well, I haven't heard of any problems with SATA burners, but I won't
>doubt they may have had some in the past. You can pick up a SATA burner
>for between $20-25 on Ebay.

I've ordered an Asus SATA burner, so I'll see how that turns out.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Previously John Turco <jtur.DeleteThis@concentric.net> wrote:
> Arno Wagner wrote:
>>
>> Previously Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI.DeleteThis@dontearthlinklike.netspam> wrote:
>> > I need a PCI card with two independent IDE channels to drive two DVD drives.
>>
>> > And I emphasize *independent*, because I currently have a Sil 0680-based card
>> > with two IDE channels, but they are not independent. They are mutually
>> > speed-limiting.
>>
>> > For example, when ripping two DVDs, if one is only able to read at 3x, the
>> > other is also limited to 3x, even though alone it would be able to read at 5x.
>> > If one runs into a read error, and loops through a few retries, the other
>> > drive is paralyzed.
>>
>> > This also prevents both from burning reliably at the same time.
>>
>> > Just to be clear, both DVD drives are the master IDE devices on separate
>> > cables, connected to separate channels on the card.
>>
>> > So, anyone know of a card with truly independent channels?
>>
>> This sounds strange. Maybe your bottleneck is the driver instead?
>>
>> If not, I have made good experience with the Promise non-RAID
>> cards. With one drive on each channel, you can even do
>> softrware RAID on both drives without trouble.
>>
>> Arno


> Hello, Arno:

> Are you implying that DVD drives can be RAIDed, perhaps? <g>

Well, they can, but it does not make a whole lot of sense

Seriously, a software RAID1 load is massively slowed down when
both drives are on one IDE channel. With the Promise cards,
it is not when the two drives are on two channels. With this
my statement becomes relevant to the OP's question.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

On or about 9 May 2008 09:04:00 GMT did Arno Wagner <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> dribble
thusly:

>Seriously, a software RAID1 load is massively slowed down when
>both drives are on one IDE channel. With the Promise cards,
>it is not when the two drives are on two channels. With this
>my statement becomes relevant to the OP's question.

Not necessarily. If the card is handling the RAID, then it's equivalent to
only one drive. The card may be easily able to read/write from/to both drives
independently, but it's only using the bus for one logical drive.

If you really want to know whether it's relevant to my original question
(independent DVD drive use), you'd have to confirm that a software RAID0 array
on the card works, since then both hard drives are transferring data on the
bus.

As it happens, the Promise cards have a reputation for not supporting ATAPI
properly, so it doesn't much matter whether the channels are truly
independant, as far as I'm concerned.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

Previously Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI.RemoveThis@dontearthlinklike.netspam> wrote:
> On or about 9 May 2008 09:04:00 GMT did Arno Wagner <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> dribble
> thusly:

>>Seriously, a software RAID1 load is massively slowed down when
>>both drives are on one IDE channel. With the Promise cards,
>>it is not when the two drives are on two channels. With this
>>my statement becomes relevant to the OP's question.

> Not necessarily. If the card is handling the RAID, then it's
> equivalent to only one drive. The card may be easily able to
> read/write from/to both drives independently, but it's only using
> the bus for one logical drive.

.... "software RAID" ...

> If you really want to know whether it's relevant to my original
> question (independent DVD drive use), you'd have to confirm that a
> software RAID0 array on the card works, since then both hard drives
> are transferring data on the bus.

> As it happens, the Promise cards have a reputation for not
> supporting ATAPI properly, so it doesn't much matter whether the
> channels are truly independant, as far as I'm concerned.

Some people claim that is a myth. I would'nt know.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card? 

On or about 10 May 2008 15:48:01 GMT did Arno Wagner <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> dribble
thusly:

>Previously Mike Ruskai <BUTthannydI.RemoveThis@dontearthlinklike.netspam> wrote:
>> On or about 9 May 2008 09:04:00 GMT did Arno Wagner <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> dribble
>> thusly:
>
>>>Seriously, a software RAID1 load is massively slowed down when
>>>both drives are on one IDE channel. With the Promise cards,
>>>it is not when the two drives are on two channels. With this
>>>my statement becomes relevant to the OP's question.
>
>> Not necessarily. If the card is handling the RAID, then it's
>> equivalent to only one drive. The card may be easily able to
>> read/write from/to both drives independently, but it's only using
>> the bus for one logical drive.
>
>... "software RAID" ...

Ambiguous. Software RAID 1 on a single IDE channel, or some unspecified type
of RAID 1 on a RAID adapter. I saw it as a comparison between what's
available with and without said RAID adapter. Hence, "Not necessarily", as
opposed to "no, you're wrong, blah blah".

>> If you really want to know whether it's relevant to my original
>> question (independent DVD drive use), you'd have to confirm that a
>> software RAID0 array on the card works, since then both hard drives
>> are transferring data on the bus.
>
>> As it happens, the Promise cards have a reputation for not
>> supporting ATAPI properly, so it doesn't much matter whether the
>> channels are truly independant, as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Some people claim that is a myth. I would'nt know.

When several different people who have bought the card post about the same
kind of problem, I give it some weight. It may be that the card does in fact
share bus communication between the channels, so that someone using a hard
drive on one channel and a DVD burner on the other gets poor results when
trying to write to the latter from the former. Either way, if several people
complain about DVD drives not working, it's not exactly a good bet for me to
buy it for nothing but DVD drives.

In any case, I have since purchased an Asus DRW-2014L1T SATA drive, which so
far seems to be working just fine. I can't say I understand the label of
"20x" DVD write speed, when it never gets above 16x during a full disc write
(on Verbatim 16x DVD+R MCC media) . And strangely enough, it actually slows
down near the end, while all the other burners I've had speed up near the end,
when the linear speed of the media under the laser is at max.

But at least now I can use three drives at a time at full speed.
 >> Stay informed about: Dual-channel PCI IDE card?