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Next: Curious HDD Issues
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External
Since: Aug 27, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:49 pm
Post subject: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives?
Imported from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>hardware>storage (more info?)
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External
Since: Nov 15, 2003
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:35 am
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:49:04 -0500, Andrew J. Rozsa
<rozsa.TakeThisOut@usa.invalid>:
>I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
>sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second.
Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?
>I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs
There's no "absolute limit".
One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).
On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.
>1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come the
>BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?
The CS (cable select) maybe?
Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.
>3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
>cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
>significance to this?
None.
The only thing is, if the motherboard is old, you may have trouble
booting from a PATA device that's not the master on the primary port.
With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
>4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
>would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA
>drives?
I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
not the other way around. But that might exist.
However, you wrote:
>WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
>WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
>WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
well.
If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
solution.
I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
cheaper if you're short on money.
Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets. |
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External
Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 2178
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:02 am
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Previously Fabien LE LEZ <gramster DeleteThis @gramster.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:49:04 -0500, Andrew J. Rozsa
> <rozsa DeleteThis @usa.invalid>:
>>I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
>>sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second.
> Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?
It could be an IDE floppy, e.g. an LS120.
>>I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs
> There's no "absolute limit".
I believe there is, but it is simething like 256 or higher.
> One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
> If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
> to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).
> On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
> SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.
I have made good experiences with both Promise ATA and SATA non-RAID
controllers.
>>1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come the
>>BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?
> The CS (cable select) maybe?
> Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.
Are the drives seen in the BIOS setup? If so, maybe they are
just disabled for booting.
>>3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
>>cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
>>significance to this?
> None.
Some bothched attempt to signal they are different, but without
conveying any true information. Or maybe aestetic reasons...
> The only thing is, if the motherboard is old, you may have trouble
> booting from a PATA device that's not the master on the primary port.
> With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
>>4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
>>would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA
>>drives?
> I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
> not the other way around. But that might exist.
They exist. Look for some older prostings from me with google
groups. Not too reliable or compatible in my experience.
> However, you wrote:
>>WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
>>WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
>>WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
> My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
> Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
> well.
If you get something not from WD or Maxtor, you may even increase
reliability 
> If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
> solution.
> I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
> cheaper if you're short on money.
The Ultra100 TX2 is as fast in practice and you can sometimes
get it even cheaper.
> Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
> it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.
I would stay away from that. At least under Linux it is problematic,
sicne it needs special drivers. I would expect that the Windows
drivers may also have troubles that are not present with the
pure ATA or SATA contrllers.
Arno >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: 1853
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Andrew J. Rozsa <rozsa.DeleteThis@usa.invalid> wrote:
> have 4 external (1394) enclosures with Maxtor drives in them (120GB).
> My experience with external boxes has not been very good. Eventually
> they all seem to fail. The drives seem to be OK, once I remove them
> and put them inside a desktop box. Maybe I am buying cheap enclosures.
Very likely.
> The PC I am building is based on a 865PEDAP MoBo.
> The ICH5 chipset supports:
> - 2 parallel ULTRA ATA100 sockets
> - 2 serial ATA sockets
> I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
> sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second. The Serial
> ATA sockets on the Mobo are empty, but a RAID SATA PCI adaptor
> takes care of the two small scuzzi drives. The IDE drives are
> jumpered for CS and I am using a 80-wire cable.
> I don't care if I have the SATA. They are an "inheritance" from the
> Mobo's server days.
> During boot up I see:
> Primary Master: WDC
> Primary Slave: None
> Secondary Master: None
> Secondary Slave: None
Likely you have all except the first one with a drive type of NONE.
You should have that AUTO.
> The system storage, after boot up, looks like this:
> WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
> WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
> WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
> LaCie Group SA LaCie Hard Drive FireWire+ IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device [Hard
> drive] (250.06 GB) -- drive 3
> USB 2.0 Flash Disk USB Device (1.00 GB) -- drive 4
> ST316002 1A USB Device [Hard drive] (160.04 GB) -- drive 5
> NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A [CD-ROM drive]
> 3.5" format removable media [Floppy drive]
> Local Drive Volumes (Drive Manager) are assigned thusly:
>
> c: (NTFS on drive 0) 120.02 GB 115.09 GB free
> d: (FAT32 on drive 1) 100.00 GB 44.09 GB free
> e: (NTFS on drive 2) 40.00 GB 39.04 GB free
> f: (FAT32 on drive 5) 160.00 GB 29.08 GB free
> h: (FAT32 on drive 3) 250.00 GB 14.66 GB free
> I remember something about 4 "devices" being the limit for IDEs,
Nope, only because most motherboards only have 2 ATA ports, two drives each.
Nothing to stop you having a PCI ATA card for more drives.
> but don't remember whether it was 4 devices total,
Yes.
> or up to 4 hard-drives.
Nope, its IDE devices.
> I guess I could take out the floppy drive, put a hard-drive
> in its place and use a USB or FireWire external floppy.
> But that still leaves me with an extra drive.
> I really want at least two more of the IDE drives that used
> to be in 1394 enclosures inside the desktop box, if I can.
Yes you can, just get a PCI ATA card.
> So much so, in fact, that I am willing to build a second PC, if I have
> to and share one set of I/O devices via a KVM switch. If I must.
You dont have to go that route. It can be convenient if you dont
want to have a fan cooling the drives tho. That many drives will
see the drives getting pretty hot if you fill all the drive bays with
drives with no space between the drives without a fan.
> 1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up - how come the
> BIOS doesn't see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?
You've got the drive type set to NONE in the bios.
Win will find the other drives as it boots.
> 2. Secondly, can one put 4 (four) IDE hard-drives AND the
> floppy & the DVD-ROM drive (I got the space) on one Mobo?
Not wth that motherboard.
> I would yank the SATA.
> 3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The cable
> used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any significance to this?
Nope.
> 4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
> would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA drives?
Yes, a PCI IDE card. In addition to the SATA drives if you like. >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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External
Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 1906
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Fabien LE LEZ" <gramster.DeleteThis@gramster.com> wrote in message news:sok4f2durgplbldjkngmgk8qf55m1sorgb@4ax.com
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:49:04 -0500, Andrew J. Rozsa <rozsa.DeleteThis@usa.invalid>:
>
> > I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
> > sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second.
> Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?
You new to computers?
>
> > I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs
> There's no "absolute limit".
Actually there is from the old PC days.
The limit is 2 IDE class controllers, ie 4 drives.
Which is why add-in/non_cpu_chipset IDE controllers identify as SCSI.
This changed with SATA which have their own SATA class.
>
> One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
> If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
> to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).
>
> On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
> SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.
>
> > 1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come the
> > BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?
>
> The CS (cable select) maybe?
> Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.
>
> > 3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
> > cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
> > significance to this?
>
> None.
> The only thing is, if the motherboard is old,
It's not that old by a long shot.
> you may have trouble booting from a PATA device that's not the
> master on the primary port.
Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?
> With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
And not with that one either.
And if none of the PATA drives is seen it's obviously booting from the
SATA array.
>
> > 4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
> > would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA drives?
> I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
> not the other way around.
Uhuh. Wanna try that again?
> But that might exist.
Think again.
>
> However, you wrote:
>
> > WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
> > WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
> > WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
>
> My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
> Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
> well.
>
> If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best solution.
> I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
> cheaper if you're short on money.
> Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
> it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets. >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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External
Since: Aug 27, 2006
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: 1853
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:35 am
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Folkert Rienstra <see_reply-to RemoveThis @myweb.nl> wrote
> Fabien LE LEZ <gramster RemoveThis @gramster.com> wrote
>> Andrew J. Rozsa <rozsa RemoveThis @usa.invalid> wrote
>>> I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the
>>> IDE sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second.
>> Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?
> You new to computers?
>>> I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs
>> There's no "absolute limit".
> Actually there is from the old PC days.
Nope.
> The limit is 2 IDE class controllers, ie 4 drives.
Wrong, as always.
> Which is why add-in/non_cpu_chipset IDE controllers identify as SCSI.
Wrong, as always. There was no cpu
chipset IDE controllers in the old PC days.
And the reason they get identified as SCSI is a different reason entirely.
> This changed with SATA which have their own SATA class.
>> One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
>> If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
>> to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).
>> On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA
>> sockets and 2 SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.
>>> 1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come
>>> the BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?
>> The CS (cable select) maybe?
>> Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.
>>> 3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
>>> cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
>>> significance to this?
>> None.
>> The only thing is, if the motherboard is old,
> It's not that old by a long shot.
>> you may have trouble booting from a PATA
>> device that's not the master on the primary port.
> Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?
>> With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
> And not with that one either.
> And if none of the PATA drives is seen
One of them is seen, stupid.
> it's obviously booting from the SATA array.
>>> 4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
>>> would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA drives?
>> I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on
>> PATA controllers, but not the other way around.
> Uhuh. Wanna try that again?
>> But that might exist.
> Think again.
>> However, you wrote:
>>> WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
>>> WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
>>> WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
>> My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
>> Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you
>> bargain well.
>> If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
>> solution. I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find
>> something cheaper if you're short on money.
>> Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
>> it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets. >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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External
Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 1906
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Andrew J. Rozsa" <rozsa.TakeThisOut@usa.invalid> wrote in message news:f4f4f29citog3r23p8qkr70m9vfqoj71to@4ax.com
> have 4 external (1394) enclosures with Maxtor drives in them (120GB).
> My experience with external boxes has not been very good. Eventually
> they all seem to fail. The drives seem to be OK, once I remove them
> and put them inside a desktop box. Maybe I am buying cheap enclosures.
>
> The PC I am building is based on a 865PEDAP MoBo.
>
> The ICH5 chipset supports:
> - 2 parallel ULTRA ATA100 sockets
> - 2 serial ATA sockets
>
> I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
> sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second. The Serial ATA
> sockets on the Mobo are empty,
> but a RAID SATA PCI adaptor takes care of the two small scuzzi drives.
Not according to the drive model number.
> The IDE drives are jumpered for CS and I am using a 80-wire cable.
>
> I don’t care if I have the SATA. They are an “inheritance” from the
> Mobo’s server days.
>
> During boot up I see:
>
> Primary Master: WDC
> Primary Slave: None
> Secondary Master: None
> Secondary Slave: None
>
> The system storage, after boot up, looks like this:
>
> WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
> WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
> WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
That is not SATA, AFAICT.
And if E: is 40GB then it likely is RAID1 (not that it matters).
> LaCie Group SA LaCie Hard Drive FireWire+ IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device [Hard drive] (250.06 GB) -- drive 3
> USB 2.0 Flash Disk USB Device (1.00 GB) -- drive 4
> ST316002 1A USB Device [Hard drive] (160.04 GB) -- drive 5
> NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A [CD-ROM drive]
> 3.5" format removable media [Floppy drive]
>
> Local Drive Volumes (Drive Manager) are assigned thusly:
>
> c: (NTFS on drive 0) 120.02 GB 115.09 GB free
> d: (FAT32 on drive 1) 100.00 GB 44.09 GB free
> e: (NTFS on drive 2) 40.00 GB 39.04 GB free
> f: (FAT32 on drive 5) 160.00 GB 29.08 GB free
> h: (FAT32 on drive 3) 250.00 GB 14.66 GB free
>
[snip] >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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External
Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 1906
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am
Post subject: Re: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Andrew J. Rozsa" <rozsa DeleteThis @usa.invalid> wrote in message news:2ul7f21llk6ou20iv5g571eul0i5bgdrf7@4ax.com
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:39:09 +0200, "Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to DeleteThis @myweb.nl> wrote:
> > > > "Fabien LE LEZ" <gramster DeleteThis @gramster.com> wrote in message news:sok4f2durgplbldjkngmgk8qf55m1sorgb@4ax.com
> > > > > On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:49:04 -0500, Andrew J. Rozsa <rozsa DeleteThis @usa.invalid>:
> > > > >
> [....]
> > > > > you may have trouble booting from a PATA device that's not the
> > > > > master on the primary port.
> > > >
> > > > Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?
> > > >
> > > > > With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
> > > >
> > > > And not with that one either.
> > > > And if none of the PATA drives is seen it's obviously booting from the
> > > > SATA array.
>
> Which is exactly what's happening.
>
> I, originally, intended to install and boot up from the SATA RAID.
> Started out OK, but at some point Windows ask to be installed again
> and, having spent 2 days getting 2 old drives work on my son's PC, I
> panicked and let it go ahead and install itself on the PATA (C drive),
> too. I don't understand RAID (other than the principle of it) so I was
> afraid that I wiped out the first install. So now I have TWO installs
> of Win 2000 on the IDE PATA,
> the other on the SATA.
What SATA.
>
> There is a huge black-hole in my understanding of what's happening,
> but at least am up and running and all major software and hardware are
> working.
> I know it's foolish, but it's a temporary workaround.
What is? What's wrong with this situation
(apart from the PATA drives not visible from BIOS)?
>
> I gotta have at least one system going so I can manage the router
> (actually DHCP) from it for the rest of the family. Everyone else
> (including an XBox) is wireless and depends on my system, which is
> wired to the access point. So I will probably build a second system
> (got the box, power supply, MoBo, cables, optical drives, mass
> storage, etc) for it, get it going and then return to this one
> and do it right.
Depends on what is 'wrong'.
>
> I am learning as fast as I can.
>
> Thanks you for helping me.
I'm not entirely sure with what.
As for the drives not showing up in BIOS, that is rather strange.
In my BIOS setup all drive entries are at 'NONE' but the optical
drives are nonetheless reported. I don't have IDE diskdrives though.
Obviously your IDE controller isn't disabled since your drives are
working in Windows.
I do have an AWARD version 4 bios though and yours is version 6.
Unfortunately I couldn't get your boards BIOS to show in Award's
Bios viewer so can't be of much help there.
> Best,
>
> Andrew >> Stay informed about: Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives? |
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