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External
Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>hardware>chips, others (more info?)
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:03:49 +1300, AD. <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:22:13 +0000, The little lost angel wrote:
>> Running RAID 0 on IDE is pretty much suicidal in my opinion. No thank you,
>> my IDE RAID 1 has saved me at least once already.
>I would think that most office desktops would subscribe to the 'all the
>data on the server, and reimage/replace the desktop HD at the slightest
>sign of trouble' philosophy rather than bother with IDE RAID and 2 disks
>in each machine.
>You've still got to 'fix' a machine when a disk dies, but using mirroring
>has doubled the chances of any machine needing to be 'fixed' - even
>without considering the extra drives heat. You are only improving the
>urgency of the fix.
>IDE RAID does sound worthwhile for small businesses though. ie a small
>number of non standardised PCs and very little tech support on hand.
Also: RAID is worthless for software or user glitches. It will happily make
two perfect copies of a corrupted disc instead of one. It is no substitute for
backups.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 43
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>hardware>chips (more info?)
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a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote in
news:3f9c5085.7962449@news.pacific.net.sg:
> working out of the box supporting the most common onboard IDE RAID
> solutions that is a basic requirement for corporate data nowadays
there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you are experiencing
is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH // [502-20-14-27 tylko SMS]
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://kiti.pulse.pdi.net/qv30/" target="_blank">http://kiti.pulse.pdi.net/qv30/</a> <-- to prawdziwy ja
Pent-up passive-aggressive dork alert! Whoop! Whoop!
Whoop! Whoop! Boy, you're really lighting up this alarm here!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 19
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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RusH <rush RemoveThis @kiti.pulse.pdi.net> writes:
> a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote in
> news:3f9c5085.7962449@news.pacific.net.sg:
>
> > working out of the box supporting the most common onboard IDE RAID
> > solutions that is a basic requirement for corporate data nowadays
>
> there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you are experiencing
> is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
Yes, thare are motherboards on the market with onboard IDE RAID.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26" target="_blank">http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26</a>
is just the first hit I got when I googled (I notice it uses the
Promise RAID controller, so we can confident that it's not just
software and blowing smoke).
Second, software RAID 1 works just fine for me, so what do you mean by
"crap meets reality"?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer" target="_blank">http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer</a>
Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair" target="_blank">http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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External
Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 318
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:17 am
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:26:16 +0000 (UTC), RusH
<rush DeleteThis @kiti.pulse.pdi.net> wrote:
>there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you are experiencing
>is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
Erm, which country are you in?
I'm pretty sure at least a dozen boards from various manufacturers
including Gigabyte, Asus, MSI and Abit comes with either parallal or
serial ATA raid onboard. While they might not be 100% hardware
solution, they are pretty good enough.
For one thing, I don't see any significant difference in the CPU
utilization when copying a 200MB file between my RAID 1 drives to an
standalone IDE and from a IDE to another IDE.
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me 
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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External
Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 780
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:26:16 +0000 (UTC), RusH
<rush DeleteThis @kiti.pulse.pdi.net> wrote:
>a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) wrote in
>news:3f9c5085.7962449@news.pacific.net.sg:
>
>> working out of the box supporting the most common onboard IDE RAID
>> solutions that is a basic requirement for corporate data nowadays
>
>there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you are experiencing
>is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
I think from the context of the message it's pretty obvious that what
we're talking about here is "firmware RAID", ie software RAID with
some hardware support to get it to boot and partition independent of
the operating system.
There are no true hardware IDE RAID solutions (ie stuff like what
3Ware builds) integrated onto motherboards, but for RAID0 and RAID1,
this has become rather redundant. It's only when you start looking at
RAID5 (or one of the obscure RAID modes) that hardware RAID shows a
real advantage over firmware RAID.
-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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External
Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 43
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer RemoveThis @cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in
news:1bhe1t59o4.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu:
>> there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you
>> are experiencing is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
>
> Yes, thare are motherboards on the market with onboard IDE RAID.
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26</font" target="_blank">http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26</font</a>>
> is just the first hit I got when I googled (I notice it uses the
> Promise RAID controller, so we can confident that it's not just
> software and blowing smoke).
but it IS, Its just a BIOS wrapper that makes them claim "RAID" on the box :/
> Second, software RAID 1 works just fine for me, so what do you mean by
> "crap meets reality"?
Software raid under Linux works great too, hell it works great under Windows 2000/XP
straight from the box (software raid build in to the system, no special hardware
needed).
By crap i mean calling those secondary IDE controllers a RAID solution. Its like
calling Honda VTEC a rally car, sure you can try to race someone on the country
road, but that doesnt make this car a rally one, does it ?
+ the biggest disadwantage (? sorry secondary language) of those solutions is tiding
you to the special hardware. Not necesarly with Raid 1 (but Im still not 100% sure
about full mirroring, maybe they do it in theyr 'magical' proprietary way), but RAID
0+1 on such a board = suicide. The board breaks and your screwed unless you got a
spare one (mobo off course).
Its winhardware model, its bad, we should burn all software controllerless
modems/socalledRaids/soundblasters starting with 64, and other evil
sucking_juices__from_my_cpu_when_i_dont_want_to thingies. ;o) I'm done.
Pozdrawiam.
--
RusH // [502-20-14-27 tylko SMS]
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://kiti.pulse.pdi.net/qv30/" target="_blank">http://kiti.pulse.pdi.net/qv30/</a> <-- to prawdziwy ja
Pent-up passive-aggressive dork alert! Whoop! Whoop!
Whoop! Whoop! Boy, you're really lighting up this alarm here!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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External
Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 19
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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RusH <rush.DeleteThis@kiti.pulse.pdi.net> writes:
> Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer.DeleteThis@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in
> news:1bhe1t59o4.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu:
>
> >> there are NO onboard ide raid solutions on the market ... what you
> >> are experiencing is a 'SOFTWARE raid crap meets reality'
> >
> > Yes, thare are motherboards on the market with onboard IDE RAID.
<font color=green> > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26</font" target="_blank">http://www.1hotwebserver.com/specifications.cfm?ServerID=26</font</a>>
> > is just the first hit I got when I googled (I notice it uses the
> > Promise RAID controller, so we can confident that it's not just
> > software and blowing smoke).
>
> but it IS, Its just a BIOS wrapper that makes them claim "RAID" on the box :/
I don't have any personal experience with the PDC20267, but based on
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.promise.com/product/oem_ataraid_pdc20267_eng.htm" target="_blank">http://www.promise.com/product/oem_ataraid_pdc20267_eng.htm</a>
it looks about as "hardware" as you can get, and is certainly not a
BIOS wrapper.
> > Second, software RAID 1 works just fine for me, so what do you mean by
> > "crap meets reality"?
>
> Software raid under Linux works great too, hell it works great under Windows 2000/XP
> straight from the box (software raid build in to the system, no special hardware
> needed).
>
> By crap i mean calling those secondary IDE controllers a RAID solution. Its like
> calling Honda VTEC a rally car, sure you can try to race someone on the country
> road, but that doesnt make this car a rally one, does it ?
You seem to be objecting to calling it a car because it's not a rally
car.
> + the biggest disadwantage (? sorry secondary language) of those solutions is tiding
> you to the special hardware. Not necesarly with Raid 1 (but Im still not 100% sure
> about full mirroring, maybe they do it in theyr 'magical' proprietary way), but RAID
> 0+1 on such a board = suicide. The board breaks and your screwed unless you got a
> spare one (mobo off course).
What are you talking about here?
> Its winhardware model, its bad, we should burn all software controllerless
> modems/socalledRaids/soundblasters starting with 64, and other evil
> sucking_juices__from_my_cpu_when_i_dont_want_to thingies. ;o) I'm done.
Unless, of course, what you've got is a non-RAID motherboard and you
want mirroring.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer" target="_blank">http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer</a>
Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair" target="_blank">http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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External
Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 780
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:07 am
Post subject: Re: Linux as an office desktop [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:56:48 +0000 (UTC), RusH
<rush.DeleteThis@kiti.pulse.pdi.net> wrote:
>Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer.DeleteThis@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in
>news:1bhe1t59o4.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu:
>> Second, software RAID 1 works just fine for me, so what do you mean by
>> "crap meets reality"?
>
>Software raid under Linux works great too, hell it works great under Windows 2000/XP
>straight from the box (software raid build in to the system, no special hardware
>needed).
Yeah, and you can't install an operating system on it easily either.
Software RAID is very limited, firmware RAID gets around these
limitations with only a VERY small added cost (typically about $5-$10
these days).
> By crap i mean calling those secondary IDE controllers a RAID solution. Its like
>calling Honda VTEC a rally car, sure you can try to race someone on the country
>road, but that doesnt make this car a rally one, does it ?
I dunno, upgrade the suspension and roll-cage and it could make a
decent Group 2 car :>
>+ the biggest disadwantage (? sorry secondary language) of those solutions is tiding
>you to the special hardware. Not necesarly with Raid 1 (but Im still not 100% sure
>about full mirroring, maybe they do it in theyr 'magical' proprietary way), but RAID
>0+1 on such a board = suicide. The board breaks and your screwed unless you got a
>spare one (mobo off course).
RAID 1 is just plain old mirroring, not proprietary about it. With
RAID 0, you're already taking your life in your hands, the risk of one
of the two hard drives dying is WAY higher than the risk of RAID
controller dying on you. RAID 0+1 is a bit of an odd one, though
unsupported by more firmware RAID and unused by most people who use
firmware RAID (seeing as it requires 4 drives).
Personally I see these firmware RAID setups as being a decent idea.
If it were me, I would setup a RAID 1 array for all the important
data, and a RAID 0 array for data that can be easily replaced if your
drive dies (and things like swap drives/files). Gives you the added
redundancy of RAID 1 for important data while allowing you to really
speed some things up with RAID 0.
-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Linux as an office desktop |
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