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The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing

 
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Felger Carbon

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Since: Oct 16, 2003
Posts: 137



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:26 pm
Post subject: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>hardware>chips (more info?)

"Two seemingly unrelated indicators - the fact that hotels in downtown
Phoenix were sold out at the same time that there were no taxi lines
in Las Vegas - point to subtle but sweeping changes under way in the
computer industry.

"Here in Phoenix, 8,000 people crowded into SC2003, the 15-year-old
supercomputing industry trade show and conference that has
traditionally been the exclusive province of some of the brainiest
techies in the computer industry. Meanwhile, Comdex - long the
computer industry's premier annual event - was a shadow of its former
self at its 24-year-old home in Las Vegas.
"The contrast tells a lot about how winners and losers emerge as
computing technology reacts to technical advances as well as changing
market and political realities.

"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."

<http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>

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Yousuf Khan1

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Since: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 214



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf.TakeThisOut@jfoops.net> wrote in message
news:UVlwb.12109$sb4.9046@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
 > "The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
 > after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
 > government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
 > well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
 >
 > <http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>

The Earth Simulator was only recently completed? I thought it's been on the
Top 500 list for 2 or 3 years already?

Yousuf Khan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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Felger Carbon

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Since: Oct 16, 2003
Posts: 137



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:10 pm
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Yousuf Khan" <removethisspam.bjsk90.removethispam RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:GFqwb.25431$Fv8.25297@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 >
 > The Earth Simulator was only recently completed? I thought it's been
on the
 > Top 500 list for 2 or 3 years already?

I thought it came on-line spring 2002, which makes a year and a half.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Tony Hill

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Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 780



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf.DeleteThis@jfoops.net>
wrote:
 >"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
 >after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
 >government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
 >well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
 >
 ><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>

Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
Anything?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me like this "prevent terrorism"
thing is being thrown around anytime someone needs to justify spending
money these days.

Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user227

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Since: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 11



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca> wrote in
news:dbv4sv8j14uolc85jaoanm90ad4hrmf2p4@4ax.com:

 > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf.TakeThisOut@jfoops.net>
 > wrote:
  >>"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
  >>after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
  >>government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
  >>well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
  >>
  >><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>
 >
 > Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
 > hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
 > Anything?
 >
 > I could be wrong, but it seems to me like this "prevent terrorism"
 > thing is being thrown around anytime someone needs to justify spending
 > money these days.
 >
 > Tony Hill
 > hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 >

total information awareness -- any number of other data mining operations<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Robert Myers

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Since: Oct 06, 2003
Posts: 156



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:46:38 GMT, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

 >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf.RemoveThis@jfoops.net>
 >wrote:
  >>"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
  >>after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
  >>government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
  >>well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
  >>
  >><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>
 >
 >Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
 >hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
 >Anything?
 >
 >I could be wrong, but it seems to me like this "prevent terrorism"
 >thing is being thrown around anytime someone needs to justify spending
 >money these days.
 >
It is by this time no particular secret that US intelligence-gathering
agencies have always been first in line for supercomputers.

Some identifiable number of <computers from well-known manufacturer>
can't be accounted for because they were swallowed by national
security black holes.

While there is a potentially Orwellian aspect to the whole
business--spying on ordinary citizens, for example--that is far from
the highest priority use for supercomuters.

A tremendous amount of encrypted or otherwise disguised communication
traffic crosses US borders and is obtained by other means every day.
Some of that traffic without the slightest doubt contains information
of urgent national importance.

Identifiying that information and decoding it is one of the most
computationally-intensive tasks there is, and it wouldn't do nearly as
much good to crack a PGP message from one Al Qaeda supporter to
another the day *after* a terrorist attack hits as it would to crack
it the day before the attack so it could be prevented. Time is of the
essence.

No matter what your politics may be or what you may think about the
how the US government is handling the "war on terrorism," there is a
network of people who are intent upon committing terrorist acts and
who often communicate with cell phones and PC's. Not to use the
fastest computers available to try to catch them making preparations
for such an act would be irresponsible.

To pursue the matter a bit further, the US has had a miserable history
in the spying business, at least Post WW-II. The best way to spy is
the old fashioned way: recruit human beings who are capable of
infiltrating the infrastructure of adversaries and reporting upon
their activities.

For all kinds of reasons, none of which would be appropriate as topics
for discussion in this forum, the adversaries of the US and its allies
have generally been better at "human intelligence" than the US has
been.

At some point in the Eisenhower administration, someone had the wits
to recognize that the history-majors running our
intelligence-gathering agencies just weren't going to solve the
problem, and the US has relied heavily on physicists, mathematicians,
electrical engineers, and rocket scientists ever since.

The situation hasn't changed all that much, really, since the
Eisenhower Administrations. The US national security apparatus has
similar challenges, similar failings, and similar means are being used
to compensate. Only the technology has changed.

RM<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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David Wang1

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Since: Oct 19, 2003
Posts: 25



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca> wrote:
 > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf.RemoveThis@jfoops.net>
 > wrote:
  >>"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
  >>after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
  >>government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
  >>well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
  >>
  >><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>

 > Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
 > hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
 > Anything?

Real time voice and code phrase recognition. Get on a Sat.,
Cellular or cordless phone, and the machine(s) will find you.

Then it will find your friends, and your friends friends.


--
davewang202(at)yahoo(dot)com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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George Macdonald

External


Since: Sep 09, 2004
Posts: 929



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), David Wang <foo RemoveThis @bar.invalid>
wrote:

 >Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 RemoveThis @yahoo.ca> wrote:
  >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf RemoveThis @jfoops.net>
  >> wrote:
   >>>"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
   >>>after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
   >>>government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
   >>>well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
   >>>
   >>><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>
 >
  >> Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
  >> hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
  >> Anything?
 >
 >Real time voice and code phrase recognition. Get on a Sat.,
 >Cellular or cordless phone, and the machine(s) will find you.
 >
 >Then it will find your friends, and your friends friends.

He-he - the govt. don't need no steenkin' biometrics ID cards!Smile

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Keith R. Williams

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Since: Nov 02, 2003
Posts: 66



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <jv45svk39qu73auajb9rlafr0kfbqc2aqm DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com says...
 > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), David Wang <foo DeleteThis @bar.invalid>
 > wrote:
 >
  > >Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20 DeleteThis @yahoo.ca> wrote:
   > >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:26:44 GMT, "Felger Carbon" <fmsfnf DeleteThis @jfoops.net>
   > >> wrote:
   > >>>"The supercomputer industry has begun to show renewed signs of life
   > >>>after almost a decade of decline - bolstered in part by the
   > >>>government's efforts to develop systems to help prevent terrorism as
   > >>>well as concerns over global economic competitiveness."
   > >>>
   > >>><http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/technology/24neco.html>
  > >
   > >> Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
   > >> hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
   > >> Anything?
  > >
  > >Real time voice and code phrase recognition. Get on a Sat.,
  > >Cellular or cordless phone, and the machine(s) will find you.
  > >
  > >Then it will find your friends, and your friends friends.
 >
 > He-he - the govt. don't need no steenkin' biometrics ID cards!Smile

Of course not! Those are only used by supermarkets for tracking
their customers. Sheesh! Hey, it "saves" a quarter on Depends!

--
Keith<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Keith R. Williams

External


Since: Nov 02, 2003
Posts: 66



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <r9a5svs9iqcb3a0aas8capb6fme4lak2rk.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
rmyers.RemoveThis@rustuck.com says...
 > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:46:38 GMT, Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca>
 > wrote:

  > >Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
  > >hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?
  > >Anything?
  > >
  > >I could be wrong, but it seems to me like this "prevent terrorism"
  > >thing is being thrown around anytime someone needs to justify spending
  > >money these days.
  > >
 > It is by this time no particular secret that US intelligence-gathering
 > agencies have always been first in line for supercomputers.
 >
 > Some identifiable number of <computers from well-known manufacturer>
 > can't be accounted for because they were swallowed by national
 > security black holes.

I've seen some with IRS and Census Bereau tags above them.
....even some with Army tags. I did crypto work on some that went
to the Fed, and some that pretended. Yeah. Indeed I knew where
at least some went.

....Then there were ones that were never heard from again. No
calls home, no parts needed. Strange that, eh? Wink

 > While there is a potentially Orwellian aspect to the whole
 > business--spying on ordinary citizens, for example--that is far from
 > the highest priority use for supercomuters.

Well, spying on ordinary citizens would increase the demands for
super computers some, eh? ...considering communications is
increasing at 3x the *exponent* than Moore proposes for hardware.

 > A tremendous amount of encrypted or otherwise disguised communication
 > traffic crosses US borders and is obtained by other means every day.
 > Some of that traffic without the slightest doubt contains information
 > of urgent national importance.

Indeed. Why do you think the NSA was all hyper over PGP?

 > Identifiying that information and decoding it is one of the most
 > computationally-intensive tasks there is, and it wouldn't do nearly as
 > much good to crack a PGP message from one Al Qaeda supporter to
 > another the day *after* a terrorist attack hits as it would to crack
 > it the day before the attack so it could be prevented. Time is of the
 > essence.

Actually, I don't even thing the "crack" is the important part.
If they know who is at either end... Tracability is the biggie,
IMO.

 > No matter what your politics may be or what you may think about the
 > how the US government is handling the "war on terrorism," there is a
 > network of people who are intent upon committing terrorist acts and
 > who often communicate with cell phones and PC's. Not to use the
 > fastest computers available to try to catch them making preparations
 > for such an act would be irresponsible.

Even predictions based on traffic is useful. Intellegence is a
black art (emphasis on "art"). The more trifling work can be
taken out of the hands of human analysts, the more time they have
to work on the bigger puzzle.

 > To pursue the matter a bit further, the US has had a miserable history
 > in the spying business, at least Post WW-II. The best way to spy is
 > the old fashioned way: recruit human beings who are capable of
 > infiltrating the infrastructure of adversaries and reporting upon
 > their activities.

Miserable because we've decided it was "dirty". Congress
neutered the CIA thirty years ago. Some still like it this way
(enter the gang of nine).

 > For all kinds of reasons, none of which would be appropriate as topics
 > for discussion in this forum, the adversaries of the US and its allies
 > have generally been better at "human intelligence" than the US has
 > been.

They don't have to deal with congress. ...go figure!

 > At some point in the Eisenhower administration, someone had the wits
 > to recognize that the history-majors running our
 > intelligence-gathering agencies just weren't going to solve the
 > problem, and the US has relied heavily on physicists, mathematicians,
 > electrical engineers, and rocket scientists ever since.

Well after Eisenhower. Note that Eisenhower's fruitcakes came up
with the "Bay of Pigs".

 > The situation hasn't changed all that much, really, since the
 > Eisenhower Administrations. The US national security apparatus has
 > similar challenges, similar failings, and similar means are being used
 > to compensate. Only the technology has changed.

Oh, it has changed dramatically. The CIA was dismantled long
after Ike. Indeed many of the culprits are still in congress.

--
Keith<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dorothy.bradbury

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Since: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 18



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: The NYT's Markoff on supercomputing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 > Dumb question perhaps, but can anyone please give me at least a tiny
 > hint as to how faster/better supercomputers help prevent terrorism?

Voice & face recognition in realtime across multiple channels?
o Link CCTV globally to central dbase which performs recog
---- 3D recog of face (any angle, light-level, clothing, quality, briefness)
---- recog of gestures, gait/walk (much more difficult)
o Do same with phones, multiple channels all at once

Ok, both are more cluster solution than true vector-based supercomputer.
Then again, perhaps a Supercomputer is economic, depending on basis.

Supercomputer's main domain was weather, energy & fission models.
Fission works well on a supercomputer - smaller suitcase bombs?

Alternatively figuring out how to stop the Fed destroying the US$
or the US consumer by debt before the string breaks. That's hard Smile
--
Dorothy Bradbury<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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