Proper location for long term storage?

In article <MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9.RemoveThis@news-server.nyc.rr.com>,
Louise <none.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
 >I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
 >"fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
 >regular usb backup drives.
 >
 >The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
 >become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
 >which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
 >
 >Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
 >disks should not get damp
 >
 >Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
 >as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
 >
 >Louise
 >


Inexpensive document safes are frequently intended to protect only
documents and are based on chemistry that emits water in a fire and
the ducuments, after a fire, are safe but damp. It sounds like you
might have one of these. These boxes destroy tapes and CDs in a fire.

You shoud have multiple copies of your backups and one set shuould
be taken of-site. Taking them home, from work, or vice versa.

backups should be stored in reasonably constant temp and humidity.

It isn't rocket science.


--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

"Louise" <none.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
 >I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
 > "fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
 > regular usb backup drives.
 >
 > The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
 > become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
 > which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
 >
 > Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
 > disks should not get damp
 >
 > Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
 > as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?


Buy a large bag of Cat Litter Crystals/Silica Gel, fill a few old socks and
put them in the safe. Dry the crystals out in an oven every so often as
required - or find out where the dampness is coming from.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

Louise <none DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9@news-server.nyc.rr.com...

 > I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program
 > and data, in a "fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far
 > away from the computer and regular usb backup drives.

 > The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
 > become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the
 > safe which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.

Is that because its laundered money ? |-)

 > Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under
 > an impression that disks should not get damp

Yeah, you can even get mould growth.

 > Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe

Better to have some fire resistance.

Obviously better offsite for that tho.

 > or would it be just as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?

Not for fire or theft.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <1106340909.661393.41160.TakeThisOut@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
ebct.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com says...
 > I think the better plan is to just give me the musty, stinky, moldy
 > cash. Viola, your problem is solved.
 >
 > Irwin
 >
 >
Why didn't I think of that

Louise<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <css2hd$l6n$1@panix5.panix.com>, adykes RemoveThis @panix.com says...
 > In article <MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9 RemoveThis @news-server.nyc.rr.com>,
 > Louise <none RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
  > >I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
  > >"fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
  > >regular usb backup drives.
  > >
  > >The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
  > >become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
  > >which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
  > >
  > >Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
  > >disks should not get damp
  > >
  > >Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
  > >as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
  > >
  > >Louise
  > >
 >
 >
 > Inexpensive document safes are frequently intended to protect only
 > documents and are based on chemistry that emits water in a fire and
 > the ducuments, after a fire, are safe but damp. It sounds like you
 > might have one of these. These boxes destroy tapes and CDs in a fire.
 >
 > You shoud have multiple copies of your backups and one set shuould
 > be taken of-site. Taking them home, from work, or vice versa.
 >
 > backups should be stored in reasonably constant temp and humidity.
 >
 > It isn't rocket science.
 >
 >
 >
Major problem is that home and work are in the same location. Therefore
very frequent offsite updates are not practical.

The safe is a Sentry made for the home/office. They say "2 hour fire
protection" and "water resistant".
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products.asp?m=A3810" target="_blank">http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products.asp?m=A3810</a>

How would I know whether it is designed to emit water - they certainly
don't say anything to indicate that and they do say it's water
resistant.

Although a bookcase would provide relative temperature and humidity
constancy living in the northeast does present temperature and humidity
changes. It also provides absolutely no fire protection.

Louise<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

[This followup was posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage and a copy
was sent to the cited author.]

In article <css2hd$l6n$1@panix5.panix.com>, adykes.DeleteThis@panix.com says...
 > In article <MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9.DeleteThis@news-server.nyc.rr.com>,
 > Louise <none.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
  > >I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
  > >"fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
  > >regular usb backup drives.
  > >
  > >The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
  > >become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
  > >which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
  > >
  > >Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
  > >disks should not get damp
  > >
  > >Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
  > >as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
  > >
  > >Louise
  > >
 >
 >
 > Inexpensive document safes are frequently intended to protect only
 > documents and are based on chemistry that emits water in a fire and
 > the ducuments, after a fire, are safe but damp. It sounds like you
 > might have one of these. These boxes destroy tapes and CDs in a fire.
 >
 > You shoud have multiple copies of your backups and one set shuould
 > be taken of-site. Taking them home, from work, or vice versa.
 >
 > backups should be stored in reasonably constant temp and humidity.
 >
 > It isn't rocket science.
 >
 >
 >
I just found more information on the Sentry Safe site about how they
work:
"Next, the double walls filled with Survivacast® shield the contents
from the heat of the fire. Survivacast is an insulation that
encapsulates water. As the water converts to gas in the heat of the
fire, an endothermic reaction occurs which absorbs the heat."

Is this the water-emitting chemistry you were referring to? If so...the
answer seems clear - this is NOT good fire protection

Thanks for your help.

Louise<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <MPG.1c5b781ba7a432c49897cc RemoveThis @news-server.nyc.rr.com>,
Louise <none RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
 >In article <css2hd$l6n$1@panix5.panix.com>, adykes RemoveThis @panix.com says...
  >> In article <MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9 RemoveThis @news-server.nyc.rr.com>,
  >> Louise <none RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
   >> >I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
   >> >"fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
   >> >regular usb backup drives.
   >> >
   >> >The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
   >> >become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
   >> >which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
   >> >
   >> >Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
   >> >disks should not get damp
   >> >
   >> >Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
   >> >as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
   >> >
   >> >Louise
   >> >
  >>
  >>
  >> Inexpensive document safes are frequently intended to protect only
  >> documents and are based on chemistry that emits water in a fire and
  >> the ducuments, after a fire, are safe but damp. It sounds like you
  >> might have one of these. These boxes destroy tapes and CDs in a fire.
  >>
  >> You shoud have multiple copies of your backups and one set shuould
  >> be taken of-site. Taking them home, from work, or vice versa.
  >>
  >> backups should be stored in reasonably constant temp and humidity.
  >>
  >> It isn't rocket science.
  >>
  >>
  >>
 >Major problem is that home and work are in the same location. Therefore
 >very frequent offsite updates are not practical.
 >
 >The safe is a Sentry made for the home/office. They say "2 hour fire
 >protection" and "water resistant".
 >http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products.asp?m=A3810
 >


 >HOW would I know whether it is designed to emit water - they certainly
 >don't say anything to indicate that and they do say it's water
 >resistant.
 >
 >Although a bookcase would provide relative temperature and humidity
 >constancy living in the northeast does present temperature and humidity
 >changes. It also provides absolutely no fire protection.
 >
 >Louise

If you RTFM for the product you'll find that the manufacturer
specifically says NOT INTENDED FOR COMPUTER MEDIA. That would be a
clue.

A house is not particularly good for humidity unless an expensive
humidy control system is installed and used. You'd know if you had one
by the electric bill. Unless you use year-round HVAC there is too much
temp variation.

A bank safe deposit box is good. Bank vaults have a controlled
environment.

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

Louise wrote:
 > I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
 > "fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
 > regular usb backup drives.
 >
 > The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
 > become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
 > which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
 >
 > Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
 > disks should not get damp
 >
 > Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
 > as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
 >
 > Louise
 >

Why not dry out the safe by using bags of dessicant? And, 60% R.H. is
well within the non-operating specs for typical HDs.
--
Cheers, Bob<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <Q4-dnWDDT-zT82_cRVn-vA.DeleteThis@comcast.com>,
Bob Willard <BobwBSGS.DeleteThis@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote:
 >Louise wrote:
  >> I have been keeping my very valuable disks, both program and data, in a
  >> "fireproof" safe in my apartment - but far away from the computer and
  >> regular usb backup drives.
  >>
  >> The safe, which also had a sizable quantity of cash stored there, has
  >> become damp and musty. A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
  >> which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
  >>
  >> Obviously, this is not a good system as I'm under an impression that
  >> disks should not get damp
  >>
  >> Is it really better to keep valuable disks in a safe or would it be just
  >> as good to keep them on a bookcase shelf?
  >>
  >> Louise
  >>
 >
 >Why not dry out the safe by using bags of dessicant? And, 60% R.H. is
 >well within the non-operating specs for typical HDs.
 >--
 >Cheers, Bob

If these safes are in a fire it's as if the contents were
steam-cleaned. Papers are OK but disks and tapes have been subject to
extreme heat and humidity combination. To obsess over storage and then
buy the wrong product isn't really productive.

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

Previously Louise <none.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:
 > [This followup was posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage and a copy
 > was sent to the cited author.]
[...]
 > I just found more information on the Sentry Safe site about how they
 > work:
 > "Next, the double walls filled with Survivacast® shield the contents
 > from the heat of the fire. Survivacast is an insulation that
 > encapsulates water. As the water converts to gas in the heat of the
 > fire, an endothermic reaction occurs which absorbs the heat."

 > Is this the water-emitting chemistry you were referring to? If so...the
 > answer seems clear - this is NOT good fire protection

 > Thanks for your help.

One option would be to get an extra safe for the data carriers,
one that is intended to be used for data carrier storage.

They will be tested differently for fireproofness, as paper
can stand much higher temperatures without being damaged.
Storage devices are also sensitive to smoke, another thing
that does not bother paper.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <35f5nfF4mo4qnU1.DeleteThis@individual.net>,
Arno Wagner <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
 >Previously Louise <none.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
  >> [This followup was posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage and a copy
  >> was sent to the cited author.]
 >[...]
  >> I just found more information on the Sentry Safe site about how they
  >> work:
  >> "Next, the double walls filled with Survivacast® shield the contents
  >> from the heat of the fire. Survivacast is an insulation that
  >> encapsulates water. As the water converts to gas in the heat of the
  >> fire, an endothermic reaction occurs which absorbs the heat."
 >
  >> Is this the water-emitting chemistry you were referring to? If so...the
  >> answer seems clear - this is NOT good fire protection
 >
  >> Thanks for your help.
 >
 >One option would be to get an extra safe for the data carriers,
 >one that is intended to be used for data carrier storage.
 >
 >They will be tested differently for fireproofness, as paper
 >can stand much higher temperatures without being damaged.
 >Storage devices are also sensitive to smoke, another thing
 >that does not bother paper.
 >
 >Arno
 >--
 >For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
 >GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
 > "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
 >
 >


Companies that sell computer supplies to businesses have media storage
products in thier catalogs. I do't get those catalogs anymore, but Global
and Inmac are brands that come to mind. Here are some data storage products.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.inmac.co.uk/catalogue/office%20supplies/Storage%20and%20Security%20Devices/Fire%20Safes" target="_blank">http://www.inmac.co.uk/catalogue/office%20supplies/Storage%20and%20Sec...ty%20De</a>

They have, I recall, lots of boxes that look like suitcases with various
enviromental ratings for computer media storage.

You can use these descriptions as a start for a google for other brands.

If you look up "safes" in the yellow pages for a big city you'll find
companies that sell big safes but would at least know what you were
talking about if you call them to see what they had to offer for your
needs.

I'd assume a 2-hour data-grade box would survive 99% of the residental
total fires.


If what you are storing is personal I'd get a safe deposit box at the
bank I did business with. If it's a small business I'd just put the
daily backup tape in my jacket pocket so it went home with me each
night, getting it offsite.

For business, using tapes, if you rotate media on a weekly/monthly
cycle then environemntal issues are not an issue as the data is
written freshly each time, and readback verification will warn you if
you have a problem.

Ambient conditions begin to be important after a year or more, and for
business you need a serious discussin with your accuountant or lawyer
as to what data to keep and for how long before you spend bucks
on a vault.
--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

"Louise" <none DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9@news-server.nyc.rr.com...

 > A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
 > which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.

You can get silica in cloth packets designed to absorb moisture. Put one of
these in a clear plastic box and leave the lid off. Check water level when
putting more into safe.

Try local photographic shop for a source. Also used to dry flowers...

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.romwell.com/books/craft/SilicaGel.htm" target="_blank">http://www.romwell.com/books/craft/SilicaGel.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage? 

In article <HAJId.2398$JI4.288892@phobos.telenet-ops.be>,
CWatters <colin.watters.TakeThisOut@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:
 >
 >"Louise" <none.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in message
 >news:MPG.1c5b2df058691b879897c9@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
 >
  >> A humidistat read 60% humidity inside the safe
  >> which I think was from the large amount of cash in the safe.
 >
 >You can get silica in cloth packets designed to absorb moisture. Put one of
 >these in a clear plastic box and leave the lid off. Check water level when
 >putting more into safe.
 >
 >Try local photographic shop for a source. Also used to dry flowers...
 >
 >http://www.romwell.com/books/craft/SilicaGel.htm
 >
 >


60% humidity is fine. It's the variation that's a problem
with archival storage. FOr the long term it Silica
would have nno effect on RH, once it saturated.

If we are talking about inexpensive document safes, in a fire the
chemicals emit large amounts of water and saturate the contents.
Add heat and stir.

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Proper location for long term storage?