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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: sci>electronics>design, others (more info?)
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Since: Nov 19, 2007 Posts: 170
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Somewhere on teh intarweb "Guy Macon" typed:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
>
>>> Phil Weldon wrote:
>>>
>>>> For actually pumping liquid nitrogen you could contact NASA
>>>> for a few tips... especially safety tips.
>>>
>>> You are talking to the person who taught the cryogenic
>>> safety classes for Parker Hannifin on the space shuttle
>>> 17 inch disconnect project -- under contract with NASA.
>>
>> And you're asking your questions here because all those
>> contacts you made are ob holiday?
>
> Experience designing the 17 inch wide valve that connects the
> external tank to the space shuttle doesn't apply much to the
> problem of finding a small, cheap pump for less than a liter
> per hour of liquid nitrogen.
>
>>>> Taking a flyer with a Pentium III is hardly worth the effort.
>>>
>>> You prefer I ruin a few Core Duos while I experiment?
>>
>> Sure, with the money you made from a morning's teaching cryogenic
>> safety classes
>
> The word "taught" is past tense. I no longer work for Parker.
> The Jamboree Blvd. plant closed down quite some time ago.
>
>> you could ruin a few Core Quads. After all, you can afford
>> a liquid nitrogen generator, what's a few hundred bucks
>> worth of CPUs? Trying it with a PIII is like learning to
>> drag-race in a pedal-car.
>
> If I was thinking of trying something that could burn out my
> expensive drag racer, I might very well try it on a few pedal
> cars first. Even if I could afford to destroy multiple race
> cars.
>
>>>> One possibility for a more or less continuously operating
>>>> cooler would be to use the boil-off of liquid nitrogen to
>>>> chill an anti-freeze mixture (propylene glycol & water
>>>> ~ 50:50 should be good to below - 40) that you could then
>>>> pump through a more or less stock CPU water block.
>>>
>>> I don't want minus 40. I want minus 196.
>>
>> Well Mr. Cryo-teacher, be sure to let us know how it works
>> out for you. Or not.
>
> "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's
> game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be
> indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds
> possessing infinite amounts of free time."
> -Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
>
> *plonk*
Indeed, what one would expect from someone with little grasp of the English
language.
I'm a great believer in the passage that you quoted above. That's why I
don't engage in *arguments* "on the internet". (Hint: Look up the word,
re-read my post...)
Oh, and from your website:
"HARDWARE DESIGN; I am an *expert* in *all areas* of electronics, including
analog, digital, microcontroller, high-power, low-power, high volume,
aerospace and consumer electronics."
(My ** emphasis)
Seems that you should be helping us instead of only coming here for help.
Mr. Expert.
Buh-bye.
--
TTFN,
Shaun.
"another academic failure.... trying to prove that your smart"
'blanking', nz.comp, 20 Dec 2007. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 20, 2007 Posts: 4
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <FuKdnfby__UfC_ba4p2dnAA.DeleteThis@giganews.com>, says...
> Robert Adsett wrote:
>
> >Evaporate a little nitrogen, use the pressure to move the rest.
> >Use the exhausted nitrogen from the other end to keep the
> >rest of the box cool and dry.
>
> That was my original thought as well, and is the method I have
> used in larger cryogenic systems. There is even an outfit that
> will sell you a microcontroller-operated sensor/valve that you
> put on the gas vent to regulate flow through the liquid output
> -- sort of like an aerosol can that never loses pressure.
>
> The problem is that those systems all depebded on deliveries
> of liquid nitrogen, so getting a full dewar to self-pressurize
> was no problem. The system I am looking at here generates
> liquid nitrogen from the air (it was originally used in a
> medical office) and gravity-fills a half liter dewar. I am
> pretty sure that if I let it self-pressurize the gas will
> escape through the intake tube rather than by forcing liquid
> out through the output tube. thus the question about a pump.
Ah, any reason you need continuous flow?
Pressurize to pump, let off pressure to let accumulated liquid nitrogen
into the dewar. You'd need check valves on the inlet an outlet lines.
I rather like the percolator idea as well but isn;t the surface tension
of liquid nitrogen rather low compared to water? You might just end up
with a stream of cool nitrogen vapour coming up the tube.
Robert
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Jun 17, 2006 Posts: 4
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Williams wrote:
>
> "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paulh DeleteThis @seanet.com> wrote in message
> news:476C19BC.94527DC6@seanet.com...
> > With an LN2 environment, the rotor and stator might shrink a bit, so the
> ^^^
> > design should account for a slightly larger air gap than at room
> > temperature.
>
> You mean smaller gap?
I think if the rotor and stator shrink, the gap gets larger.
> Tim
>
> --
> Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk.
> Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Three Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't quit the game. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 21, 2007 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: sci>electronics>design, others (more info?)
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On Dec 21, 10:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p... RemoveThis @hovnanian.com> wrote:
> Tim Williams wrote:
>
> > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa... RemoveThis @seanet.com> wrote in message
> >news:476C19BC.94527DC6@seanet.com...
> > > With an LN2 environment, the rotor and stator might shrink a bit, so the
> > ^^^
> > > design should account for a slightly larger air gap than at room
> > > temperature.
>
> > You mean smaller gap?
>
> I think if the rotor and stator shrink, the gap gets larger.
Everything shrinks proportionally in all dimension. "Everything"
includes the gap. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Nov 17, 2005 Posts: 20
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: sci>electronics>design, others (more info?)
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On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:33:36 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:
> Robert Adsett wrote:
>
>>Evaporate a little nitrogen, use the pressure to move the rest. Use the
>>exhausted nitrogen from the other end to keep the rest of the box cool
>>and dry.
>
> That was my original thought as well, and is the method I have used in
> larger cryogenic systems. There is even an outfit that will sell you a
> microcontroller-operated sensor/valve that you put on the gas vent to
> regulate flow through the liquid output -- sort of like an aerosol can
> that never loses pressure.
>
> The problem is that those systems all depebded on deliveries of liquid
> nitrogen, so getting a full dewar to self-pressurize was no problem.
> The system I am looking at here generates liquid nitrogen from the air
> (it was originally used in a medical office) and gravity-fills a half
> liter dewar. I am pretty sure that if I let it self-pressurize the gas
> will escape through the intake tube rather than by forcing liquid out
> through the output tube. thus the question about a pump.
Hey, Guy, am I on plonk again, or what? I suggested that if you have
your own place, and two stories to work with, just make a 15 foot tall
dewar, and gravity feed the stuff from the second floor.
I mean, it makes as much sense as tracking down and buying a rocket
fuel pump.
And the fact that you want to chill your CPU to LN2 temperatures
is prima facie evidence that you're already quite insane, so what
the hell, go for it! ;-D
Cheers!
Rich >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 20, 2007 Posts: 25
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Robert Adsett wrote:
>
>
>In article <FuKdnfby__UfC_ba4p2dnAA.DeleteThis@giganews.com>, says...
>> Robert Adsett wrote:
>>
>> >Evaporate a little nitrogen, use the pressure to move the rest.
>> >Use the exhausted nitrogen from the other end to keep the
>> >rest of the box cool and dry.
>>
>> That was my original thought as well, and is the method I have
>> used in larger cryogenic systems. There is even an outfit that
>> will sell you a microcontroller-operated sensor/valve that you
>> put on the gas vent to regulate flow through the liquid output
>> -- sort of like an aerosol can that never loses pressure.
>>
>> The problem is that those systems all depebded on deliveries
>> of liquid nitrogen, so getting a full dewar to self-pressurize
>> was no problem. The system I am looking at here generates
>> liquid nitrogen from the air (it was originally used in a
>> medical office) and gravity-fills a half liter dewar. I am
>> pretty sure that if I let it self-pressurize the gas will
>> escape through the intake tube rather than by forcing liquid
>> out through the output tube. thus the question about a pump.
>
>Ah, any reason you need continuous flow?
>
>Pressurize to pump, let off pressure to let accumulated liquid nitrogen
>into the dewar. You'd need check valves on the inlet an outlet lines.
I would have to either shut down the PC or drop the clock rate on
the CPU and GPU. It wouldn't take long to burn up a 3GHz proessor
overclocked to 5GHz. Then again, I probably need a shutdown on loss
of coolant anyway.
I was envisioning a constant flow with a simple servo to hold a
certain CPU temperature. A put-put variation as in a percolator
or pistom pump wouldn't be too bad, but an interuprtion long
enough to refill a dewar seems like it would be a problem.
>I rather like the percolator idea as well but isn;t the surface tension
>of liquid nitrogen rather low compared to water? You might just end up
>with a stream of cool nitrogen vapour coming up the tube.
I am beginning to think that designing a LN2 perolator might be the
part that I find to be the most fun.
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/> >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Nov 19, 2007 Posts: 170
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Somewhere on teh intarweb "Richard Henry" typed:
> On Dec 21, 10:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p....DeleteThis@hovnanian.com> wrote:
>> Tim Williams wrote:
>>
>>> "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa....DeleteThis@seanet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:476C19BC.94527DC6@seanet.com...
>>>> With an LN2 environment, the rotor and stator might shrink a bit,
>>>> so the ^^^ design should account for a slightly larger air gap
>>>> than at room temperature.
>>
>>> You mean smaller gap?
>>
>> I think if the rotor and stator shrink, the gap gets larger.
>
> Everything shrinks proportionally in all dimension. "Everything"
> includes the gap.
Assuming similar materials for rotor and stator (housing).
--
TTFN,
Shaun.
"another academic failure.... trying to prove that your smart"
'blanking', nz.comp, 20 Dec 2007.
"your so predictable misfit"
'blanking', nz.comp, 21 Dec 2007. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 22, 2007 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:02 am
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:15:56 -0500, Robert Adsett
<sub2.TakeThisOut@aeolusdevelopment.com> wrote:
>In article <FuKdnfby__UfC_ba4p2dnAA.TakeThisOut@giganews.com>, says...
>> Robert Adsett wrote:
>>
>> >Evaporate a little nitrogen, use the pressure to move the rest.
>> >Use the exhausted nitrogen from the other end to keep the
>> >rest of the box cool and dry.
>>
>> That was my original thought as well, and is the method I have
>> used in larger cryogenic systems. There is even an outfit that
>> will sell you a microcontroller-operated sensor/valve that you
>> put on the gas vent to regulate flow through the liquid output
>> -- sort of like an aerosol can that never loses pressure.
>>
>> The problem is that those systems all depebded on deliveries
>> of liquid nitrogen, so getting a full dewar to self-pressurize
>> was no problem. The system I am looking at here generates
>> liquid nitrogen from the air (it was originally used in a
>> medical office) and gravity-fills a half liter dewar. I am
>> pretty sure that if I let it self-pressurize the gas will
>> escape through the intake tube rather than by forcing liquid
>> out through the output tube. thus the question about a pump.
>
>Ah, any reason you need continuous flow?
>
>Pressurize to pump, let off pressure to let accumulated liquid nitrogen
>into the dewar. You'd need check valves on the inlet an outlet lines.
>
>I rather like the percolator idea as well but isn;t the surface tension
>of liquid nitrogen rather low compared to water? You might just end up
>with a stream of cool nitrogen vapour coming up the tube.
>
>Robert
The percolator pump can work well with LN2, for instance a percolator
pump is used for a 6 foot lift in one air separation plant I know of.
Air separation plants and bottle filling facilities generally fill
high pressure bottles from low pressure liquid storage tanks by
perssurizing the liquid to 3000+ PSI, evaporating the HP liquid in
those ice covered towers you see outside at these facilities, and
filling the tanks with warmed HP gas. It takes a lot less energy to
pressurize liquid than gas. The pumps are simple piston pumps with
extra long insulated parts, but hardly worth it for moving a few
liters a few feet. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 21, 2007 Posts: 4
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Richard Henry wrote:
>
> On Dec 21, 10:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p....DeleteThis@hovnanian.com> wrote:
> > Tim Williams wrote:
> >
> > > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa....DeleteThis@seanet.com> wrote in message
> > >news:476C19BC.94527DC6@seanet.com...
> > > > With an LN2 environment, the rotor and stator might shrink a bit, so the
> > > ^^^
> > > > design should account for a slightly larger air gap than at room
> > > > temperature.
> >
> > > You mean smaller gap?
> >
> > I think if the rotor and stator shrink, the gap gets larger.
>
> Everything shrinks proportionally in all dimension. "Everything"
> includes the gap.
Lets see: The rotor gets smaller. The stator gets thinner and its
circumference decreases. Unlike a solid ring, the interior of a rotor is
(usually) slotted, so its circumferential shrinkage doesn't reduce the
ID in the same manner as with a solid ring. The pole pieces do shrink in
length, increasing the stator ID.
I've seen the results of the reverse problem, heating a motor with a
very small air gap to the point that the rotor hit the poles.
--
Paul Hovnanian paul.DeleteThis@hovnanian.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Procrastinators: The leaders for tomorrow. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 21, 2007 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: sci>electronics>design, others (more info?)
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On Dec 22, 3:27 am, "~misfit~" <misfit6... DeleteThis @yahoot.com.au> wrote:
> Somewhere on teh intarweb "Richard Henry" typed:
>
> > On Dec 21, 10:35 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p... DeleteThis @hovnanian.com> wrote:
> >> Tim Williams wrote:
>
> >>> "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa... DeleteThis @seanet.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:476C19BC.94527DC6@seanet.com...
> >>>> With an LN2 environment, the rotor and stator might shrink a bit,
> >>>> so the ^^^ design should account for a slightly larger air gap
> >>>> than at room temperature.
>
> >>> You mean smaller gap?
>
> >> I think if the rotor and stator shrink, the gap gets larger.
>
> > Everything shrinks proportionally in all dimension. "Everything"
> > includes the gap.
>
> Assuming similar materials for rotor and stator (housing).
> --
> TTFN,
>
> Shaun.
>
> "another academic failure.... trying to prove that your smart"
> 'blanking', nz.comp, 20 Dec 2007.
>
> "your so predictable misfit"
> 'blanking', nz.comp, 21 Dec 2007.
True, but the difference in shrinkage betwen the rotor and stator
would have to be greater that the shrinkage of the stator in order for
the gap to become larger. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: sci>electronics>design, others (more info?)
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"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paulh.TakeThisOut@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:476D8668.EBF1B1F2@seanet.com...
> Lets see: The rotor gets smaller. The stator gets thinner and its
> circumference decreases.
The circumference, inside and out, decreases. It gets thinner, but the
inside diameter does not increase; that would be absurd.
If the rotor and stator are made of the same material (they are in an
induction motor, made of laminated steel) and are the same temperature,
then the gap will get smaller as the temperature decreases.
If the materials are not equal (e.g., aluminum housing or rotor, permanent
magnets, etc.), behavior may differ.
Most likely, in a DC motor, the rotor heats up more than the
stator/housing, so the gap will tend to shrink, regardless of the outside
air temperature. Different types of induction motors (wound, fixed and
permanent rotors, etc.) may behave differently.
Tim
--
Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk.
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Dec 20, 2007 Posts: 4
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <2e2dncw624yhbvHa4p2dnAA.TakeThisOut@giganews.com>, says...
>
>
> Robert Adsett wrote:
> >
> >
> >In article <FuKdnfby__UfC_ba4p2dnAA.TakeThisOut@giganews.com>, says...
> >> Robert Adsett wrote:
> >>
> >> >Evaporate a little nitrogen, use the pressure to move the rest.
> >> >Use the exhausted nitrogen from the other end to keep the
> >> >rest of the box cool and dry.
> >>
> >> That was my original thought as well, and is the method I have
> >> used in larger cryogenic systems. There is even an outfit that
> >> will sell you a microcontroller-operated sensor/valve that you
> >> put on the gas vent to regulate flow through the liquid output
> >> -- sort of like an aerosol can that never loses pressure.
> >>
> >> The problem is that those systems all depebded on deliveries
> >> of liquid nitrogen, so getting a full dewar to self-pressurize
> >> was no problem. The system I am looking at here generates
> >> liquid nitrogen from the air (it was originally used in a
> >> medical office) and gravity-fills a half liter dewar. I am
> >> pretty sure that if I let it self-pressurize the gas will
> >> escape through the intake tube rather than by forcing liquid
> >> out through the output tube. thus the question about a pump.
> >
> >Ah, any reason you need continuous flow?
> >
> >Pressurize to pump, let off pressure to let accumulated liquid nitrogen
> >into the dewar. You'd need check valves on the inlet an outlet lines.
>
> I would have to either shut down the PC or drop the clock rate on
> the CPU and GPU. It wouldn't take long to burn up a 3GHz proessor
> overclocked to 5GHz. Then again, I probably need a shutdown on loss
> of coolant anyway.
I was thinking the off portion would be a second or two. Not enough to
fill the Dewar, just let in whatever has been generated. I was assuming
there would be enough of a head on the nitrogen to handle a short off
period. A nice wide input valve and a short off cycle.
> >I rather like the percolator idea as well but isn;t the surface tension
> >of liquid nitrogen rather low compared to water? You might just end up
> >with a stream of cool nitrogen vapour coming up the tube.
>
> I am beginning to think that designing a LN2 perolator might be the
> part that I find to be the most fun.
Well, there is that
Robert
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Jun 22, 2005 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Somewhere on teh intarweb "Glen Walpert" typed:
> It takes a lot less energy to
> pressurize liquid than gas.
Wow! Things have sure changed since I studied physics. You can pressurize
liquids now? Easier than gas no less! I guess that means my car brakes
aren't going to work anymore. Thanks for the heads-up, I could have been
killed.
--
TTFN,
Shaun.
"another academic failure.... trying to prove that your smart"
'blanking', nz.comp, 20 Dec 2007.
"your so predictable misfit"
'blanking', nz.comp, 21 Dec 2007. >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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Since: Nov 03, 2003 Posts: 4
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:31:05 +1300, the renowned "~misfit~"
<misfit61nz RemoveThis @yahoot.co.nz> wrote:
>Somewhere on teh intarweb "Glen Walpert" typed:
>
>> It takes a lot less energy to
>> pressurize liquid than gas.
>
>Wow! Things have sure changed since I studied physics. You can pressurize
>liquids now? Easier than gas no less! I guess that means my car brakes
>aren't going to work anymore. Thanks for the heads-up, I could have been
>killed.
Do you know the difference between "pressurize" and "compress"?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff RemoveThis @interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >> Stay informed about: Pumping Liquid Nitrogen |
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