Q6600 "safe" temps?

Somewhere on teh interweb Howard Goldstein typed:
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:19:58 -0500, Phil Weldon
> <not.disclosed.TakeThisOut@example.com> wrote:
>> 'Howard Goldstein' wrote, in part;
>>> That's great advice. None of us should have that much heat in the
>>> box. I'm still trying to find the magic bullet that'll ventilate
>>> this quiet Antec P182 case without whoooshing me away with noise,
>>> but it's not working still >10C over ambient. Must be airflow?
>>>
>>> Any advice on forming baffles to help direct internal airflow?
>>> There's 100CFM actively sucked out and 50CFM actively pushed in.
>> _____
>>
>> Baffles, we don' need no stinking baffles.

I agree. I'm a proponent of the "more power" and intelligent design
philosophies when it comes to case cooling. Go with the thermal syphon, use
it to your advantage and try to have at least slightly more air being pulled
into the case than is being pushed out. Bottom front and top back
respectively. Or just bottom and top, as long as HDD/s are cooled.

Bafles no. However, I do, on occasion use ducts to feed anbient temp air
directly to the CPU cooler* fan.

>> Try reversing the fan functions; have the 100 CFM fan blowing in,
>> the 50 CFM fan blowing out. This will have the added advantage of
>> allowing you to filter all the air since the case will operate at a
>> slightly positive air pressure. This one change may or may not
>> help the inside case ambient temperature, but it will keep dust out.

This would have been exactly my advice. Good job I read other replies
(sometimes) huh?

> I'll try that - thank you. RIght now I have the two at the corner of
> the case near the CPU exhausting. I'll turn the one on the rear and
> the one by the old hot IDE drive up front around but leave the top fan
> exhausting, then try the other permutations to see what works best.

No no no. Put the 100CFM fan in the front bottom pulling air in and the
50CFM one at the back exhausting (along with the PSU fan I take it?). That
way you're not fighting the natural tendancy of hot air rising, you're
working with it. You get two instant benefits, one is positive case
pressure, (if the PSU fan is less than 50CFM) meaning that dust doesn't get
sucked into optical/floppy drives etc. The other (and don't laugh!) is that,
with positive case pressure, you have a slightly higher pressure inside the
case. Higher pressure means more molecules per square foot. As the "air
molecules" are what are removing your heat, this is a good thing. Ok, it's
not as molecule-dense as liquid cooling and it might only be fractionally
better than normal air pressure but every little helps.

*I have to consciously not write "heatsink" these days when refering to the
device that cools the CPU. Absolutely nothing about my 6 heatpipe, passive
phase-change, all copper Tt Mini Typhoon can be classified as a "heatsink".
It is a heat transfer system, and an excellent one at that (as I found out
when I took to the base with an angle grinder while my mate held it by the
fin area, then complained it was too hot to hold after 20 seconds). So I
have to keep reminding myself to call it a "cooler" rather than a "heatsink"
or "HSF".

Actually, thinking about it, the term "heatsink" shouldn't have been used at
all once fans were fitted to the cooling device. Unless you call "sinking"
the heat into air heatsinking.

Ok, bye now.
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

'Howard Goldstein' wrote, in part:
| I accidentally confused things here. It's 100cfm between two 50cfm
| fans soon to be turned into suckers like their owner, and one 50
| blowing in who I'm going to work very hard to exhaustion. The case
| itself has some pretty large vents.
|
| The 50 blowing in has the screen filter that comes with the Antec case
| (this is the puppy here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025&Tpk=p182
| I would not recommend this case except for use in a suit's office, and
| then only with the rebate)
_____

No, no, no. TWO fans blowing IN, ONE blowing OUT (remember the power supply
fan is already blowing out too.) Otherwise no positive pressure, rather a
negative pressure and you can't keep dust out. If your case geometry is
such that you can't put two fans in the case front and one in the rear, then
you really, really DO need to cut a hole in the side panel and install a
slow 120 mm fan.

It is not hard at all to cut a whole in a steel or aluminum side panel. You
can get a 'nibbler' from RadioShack for ~ $10 US. Then all you need to do
is draw a 120 mm diameter circle on the panel, drill a 3/8" hole on the edge
of the circle, insert the nibbler, then slowly chew your way around the
circle. Twenty minutes work to cut the circle. Smooth the edges with a
rattail file. Drill four mounting holes for the fan. Install a filter
frame on the outside of the panel and the fan on the inside. The square
filter frame will completely cover the edge of the circular cut, so any
imperfections will be hidden. Use a long power cable on the fan so that you
can plug it in with the panel open. So, power hand drill, 3.8" bit (for
starter hole), 3/16" bit for screw holes, nibbler, and rattail file. An
hour or so should see you through. You may need an extension 12 v cable for
power.

Phil Weldon
"Howard Goldstein" <hgoldste.DeleteThis@mpcs.com> wrote in message
news:1197132315.76736@news.queue.to...
| On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:35:52 +1300, ~misfit~ <misfit61nz.DeleteThis@yahoot.com.au>
wrote:
| : Somewhere on teh interweb Howard Goldstein typed:
| : > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:19:58 -0500, Phil Weldon
| : > <not.disclosed.DeleteThis@example.com> wrote:
| : >> 'Howard Goldstein' wrote, in part;
| : >>> That's great advice. None of us should have that much heat in the
| : >>> box. I'm still trying to find the magic bullet that'll ventilate
| : >>> this quiet Antec P182 case without whoooshing me away with noise,
| : >>> but it's not working still >10C over ambient. Must be airflow?
| : >>>
| : >>> Any advice on forming baffles to help direct internal airflow?
| : >>> There's 100CFM actively sucked out and 50CFM actively pushed in.
| : >> _____
| : >>
| : >> Baffles, we don' need no stinking baffles.
| :
| : I agree. I'm a proponent of the "more power" and intelligent design
| : philosophies when it comes to case cooling. Go with the thermal syphon,
use
| : it to your advantage and try to have at least slightly more air being
pulled
| : into the case than is being pushed out. Bottom front and top back
| : respectively. Or just bottom and top, as long as HDD/s are cooled.
| :
| : Bafles no. However, I do, on occasion use ducts to feed anbient temp
air
| : directly to the CPU cooler* fan.
|
| Ductwork is what I meant to write. You'd commended that to me to try
| out, too, I didn't forget. I really really wanna avoid taking a
| cutter to the side panel but I'm getting desperate.
|
| :
| : >> Try reversing the fan functions; have the 100 CFM fan blowing in,
| : >> the 50 CFM fan blowing out. This will have the added advantage of
| : >> allowing you to filter all the air since the case will operate at a
| : >> slightly positive air pressure. This one change may or may not
| : >> help the inside case ambient temperature, but it will keep dust out.
| :
| : This would have been exactly my advice. Good job I read other replies
| : (sometimes) huh?
| :
| : > I'll try that - thank you. RIght now I have the two at the corner of
| : > the case near the CPU exhausting. I'll turn the one on the rear and
| : > the one by the old hot IDE drive up front around but leave the top fan
| : > exhausting, then try the other permutations to see what works best.
| :
| : No no no. Put the 100CFM fan in the front bottom pulling air in and the
| : 50CFM one at the back exhausting (along with the PSU fan I take it?).
That
| : way you're not fighting the natural tendancy of hot air rising, you're
| : working with it. You get two instant benefits, one is positive case
| : pressure, (if the PSU fan is less than 50CFM) meaning that dust doesn't
get
| : sucked into optical/floppy drives etc. The other (and don't laugh!) is
that,
| : with positive case pressure, you have a slightly higher pressure inside
the
| : case. Higher pressure means more molecules per square foot. As the "air
| : molecules" are what are removing your heat, this is a good thing. Ok,
it's
| : not as molecule-dense as liquid cooling and it might only be
fractionally
| : better than normal air pressure but every little helps.
|
| I accidentally confused things here. It's 100cfm between two 50cfm
| fans soon to be turned into suckers like their owner, and one 50
| blowing in who I'm going to work very hard to exhaustion. The case
| itself has some pretty large vents.
|
| The 50 blowing in has the screen filter that comes with the Antec case
| (this is the puppy here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025&Tpk=p182
| I would not recommend this case except for use in a suit's office, and
| then only with the rebate)
|
| We stopped smoking indoors around 20 years ago but the dust is just
| incredible anyway, maybe from all the fires. I don't have any other
| screening material to use on the newly-minted suckers so I'll have to
| steal a pair of Mrs's hose and hope she doesn't notice.
|
| I *will* report back on the difference here.
|
| :
| : *I have to consciously not write "heatsink" these days when refering to
the
| : device that cools the CPU. Absolutely nothing about my 6 heatpipe,
passive
| : phase-change, all copper Tt Mini Typhoon can be classified as a
"heatsink".
| : It is a heat transfer system, and an excellent one at that (as I found
out
| : when I took to the base with an angle grinder while my mate held it by
the
| : fin area, then complained it was too hot to hold after 20 seconds). So
I
| : have to keep reminding myself to call it a "cooler" rather than a
"heatsink"
| : or "HSF".
| :
| : Actually, thinking about it, the term "heatsink" shouldn't have been
used at
| : all once fans were fitted to the cooling device. Unless you call
"sinking"
| : the heat into air heatsinking.
| :
| : Ok, bye now.
|
| Dude, I'm still having issues thinking in this centigrade scale.
| For me "Coolers" instead of "Heatsinks" is too much envelope expansion
| to deal with
|
| Oh but I'll throw in a good word for Tt's power supply. The 750w
| toughpower with the rebate has been rock solid. A cable mgmnt
| nightmare but trouble free.
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

Phil Weldon wrote:

> It is not hard at all to cut a whole in a steel or aluminum side panel.

Would you really cut a hole in this thing?!
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article741-page1.html
Cutting a hole in the side would definitely let more inside noise out.
And it's a layer of stainless, plastic, and aluminum! Stainless can be
pretty tough. My RS nibbler broke long ago, and I never bought
another.
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

Somewhere on teh interweb Howard Goldstein typed:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:35:52 +1300, ~misfit~

<snip>

>> Bafles no. However, I do, on occasion use ducts to feed anbient
>> temp air directly to the CPU cooler* fan.
>
> Ductwork is what I meant to write. You'd commended that to me to try
> out, too, I didn't forget. I really really wanna avoid taking a
> cutter to the side panel but I'm getting desperate.

I don't blame you for getting deperate. See my comments below.

> (this is the puppy here:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025&Tpk=p182
> I would not recommend this case except for use in a suit's office,
> and
> then only with the rebate)

Wow! Now I see what you're working with.

I'm sorry Howard but I have to agree with you, that case is a terrible
design for an overclocker. Maybe fine for a Core 2 Solo Celeron in, as you
say, "a suit's office". Maybe even one of the slower, cooler C2Ds. However,
from a thermal management viewpoint, that case is a nightmare. Who designs
these things? As my grandmother would say, "It's all shirt and no trousers".

I can see that it's not going to be as easy as Phil and I thought for you to
chew a hole in the side. However, from looking at it, it's the only way that
you're ever going to get it to perform reasonably. Yeah, it'll be noisier.
However, as I think I've said to you before, "quiet" and "overclocked"
aren't good bed-fellows.

<shakes head> I still can't get over the crazy design of that case. It
*might* be fine for a CPU with a TDP of 35W running in an air conditioned
office but otherwise it is, IMO, rubbish. (Sorry) I'd always thought Antec
were quite good going by peripheral noises that I've heard about them.
However, after seeing that and studying the airflow characteristics, I'm
glad I've never bought one and wouldn't thank you for one. (If I was forced
to build a system in it the first thing I'd do is make sure I have an
efficient CPU cooler that blows towards the mobo, then cut the side to
incorporate a fan the lines up with, and is ducted to the CPU fan)

Good luck with trying to get it to get any performance out of it without
cutting. I still can't get over it. It looks like it was designed by the
marketing branch rather than a (knowledgeable) design team.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

~misfit~ wrote:
> Somewhere on teh interweb Howard Goldstein typed:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:35:52 +1300, ~misfit~
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Bafles no. However, I do, on occasion use ducts to feed anbient
>>> temp air directly to the CPU cooler* fan.
>> Ductwork is what I meant to write. You'd commended that to me to try
>> out, too, I didn't forget. I really really wanna avoid taking a
>> cutter to the side panel but I'm getting desperate.
>
> I don't blame you for getting deperate. See my comments below.
>
>> (this is the puppy here:
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025&Tpk=p182
>> I would not recommend this case except for use in a suit's office,
>> and
>> then only with the rebate)
>
> Wow! Now I see what you're working with.
>
> I'm sorry Howard but I have to agree with you, that case is a terrible
> design for an overclocker. Maybe fine for a Core 2 Solo Celeron in, as you
> say, "a suit's office". Maybe even one of the slower, cooler C2Ds. However,
> from a thermal management viewpoint, that case is a nightmare. Who designs
> these things? As my grandmother would say, "It's all shirt and no trousers".
>
> I can see that it's not going to be as easy as Phil and I thought for you to
> chew a hole in the side. However, from looking at it, it's the only way that
> you're ever going to get it to perform reasonably. Yeah, it'll be noisier.
> However, as I think I've said to you before, "quiet" and "overclocked"
> aren't good bed-fellows.
>
> <shakes head> I still can't get over the crazy design of that case. It
> *might* be fine for a CPU with a TDP of 35W running in an air conditioned
> office but otherwise it is, IMO, rubbish. (Sorry) I'd always thought Antec
> were quite good going by peripheral noises that I've heard about them.
> However, after seeing that and studying the airflow characteristics, I'm
> glad I've never bought one and wouldn't thank you for one. (If I was forced
> to build a system in it the first thing I'd do is make sure I have an
> efficient CPU cooler that blows towards the mobo, then cut the side to
> incorporate a fan the lines up with, and is ducted to the CPU fan)
>
> Good luck with trying to get it to get any performance out of it without
> cutting. I still can't get over it. It looks like it was designed by the
> marketing branch rather than a (knowledgeable) design team.
>
> Cheers,

The P182 is reviewed here.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article741-page1.html

Paul
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

How is your Noctua oriented, fan blowing upwards or backwards?
And the Antec Tri-Cool fans, what speed are they set to? You
have all three fans in the top and none in the bottom compartment?
And a big hot HDD also is in the top? My cpu fan is blowing upwards,
I have all HDDs in the bottom cage with the fan in the bottom on low.
Both top and back fans are on low and I have none in the front, but I'm
about to put the Noctua there. I have a passively cooled video card in
at the moment, with the ducted 80mm fan with quiet mode adapter of
the P180 case blowing on it. That is ducted to a grille where your water
cooling pipes are. My system temp says 31° C with all four cores at
100%. CPU fan only says 1061 RPM, I thought I had a 1600 RPM.
No wonder I can't hear it.

I had tried the Noctua fan on my Thermalright, and it did not
cool as well. It did not build pressure with the open tips, I think. I
saw that there are some 120mm PWM fans now, too, that could
ramp-up when necessary:
www.heatsinkfactory.com/pwm-fans.html
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186015

I noticed there were some ducts here that could be useful:
www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_support_installation_fanduct_hr01.htm
http://www.heatsinkfactory.com/fan-ducting.html

I don't think 29° C is too hot, that's only about 84° F. I would try the
duct and try swapping one of the Antec fans temporarily to see if it
helps.

I wonder if you'd notice any change by opening the little door in front
of the front fan...
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

"Fishface" <invalid DeleteThis @ddress.ok?> wrote in message
news:SoE6j.4236$k22.1413@trnddc02...
> Phil Weldon wrote:
>
>> It is not hard at all to cut a whole in a steel or aluminum side panel.
>
> Would you really cut a hole in this thing?!
> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article741-page1.html
> Cutting a hole in the side would definitely let more inside noise out.
> And it's a layer of stainless, plastic, and aluminum! Stainless can be
> pretty tough. My RS nibbler broke long ago, and I never bought
> another.
I have one of those myself, liquid cooled though. I reversed the top fan to
blow into the case instead of out and set the speed to medium (middle of the
three settings). It helped cooling all-round. I needed just a bit more cool
air to the radiator (where your rear 120mm fan is). This also helped get
some more air to the NB and SB of the Striker Extreme and keeps the heatpipe
fins nice and cool. In the top chamber, the only exhaust fan is the 120mm
radiator fan set on high, with two 120mm fans blowing in for slight positive
pressure and a bit less dust in the case.



Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

'Fishface' wrote:
| Would you really cut a hole in this thing?!
| http://www.silentpcreview.com/article741-page1.html
| Cutting a hole in the side would definitely let more inside noise out.
| And it's a layer of stainless, plastic, and aluminum! Stainless can be
| pretty tough. My RS nibbler broke long ago, and I never bought
| another.

Well, if I HAD bought one, and then had a temperature problem, I would cut a
hole. But then I've always opted for BIG cases and good cooling over quiet
operation and good looks. There is an alternative to the nibbler. A 4.5"
Greenlee Chassis punch would do a fast job with good results. But you'd
probably want to rent one find a shop to do it for you the 4.5" punch costs
~ $500 US B^)

But the fan layout for the Antec P182 seems pretty good for cooling; IF the
front panel 120 mm fan blows in across the display adapter/chipset area, the
120 mm fan in the top of the case blows in over the CPU heatsink fins, and
the rear panel 120mm fan exhausts from directly behind the CPU heatsink. If
'Howard Goldstein' sets up the front panel 120 mm fan to blow in, the top
panel 120 mm fan to blow in, and the rear 120 mm fan to blow out he should
get pretty good results. If not, I think the next step would be to measure
air temperatures at various locations in the case to find out what may be
wrong with the air flow paths, rather than to cut a hole for a fourth case
fan.

I've had my Enlight EN-8950 cases (17" X 25.5" X 7.5) for years now; I just
keep refilling them (Celeron 533a, Pentium III, Pentium 4, Core 2.) I can
put two 120 mm fans in the front panel blowing across the hard drives and
two 80 mm fans in the rear panel in the stock case. The side 120 mm fan I
nibbled a hole for is (with my current ThermalTake i7 heatsink fan) mainly
for blowing air into the memory slot/chipset/1st PCI-E x16 slot. If I had
started with a SLI capable system I would have placed the side fan lower to
supply air mainly to the peripheral slot area. I leave the unpopulated slot
back panel openings uncovered and have remove the surround at the rear panel
connector set.

As for anti-noise treatment, I recently lined the inside surfaces of the
case with some 1/8 heavy rubber foam sheets. And have tried hard drive side
mounted heatsink 3.5" to 5.25" adapters that isolated the drives from the
frame with large rubber blocks (no metal-to metal contact between the hard
drives and the frame at all.) The noise isn't a problem to me at all unless
I turn up the front fan speed. The nVidia chipset fan produces the most
noise, and it is pretty well buried in the middle of the case.

The nine 5.25" / one 3.5" drive bay Enlight EN-8950 isn't a pretty case, but
the price is right, ~ $100 US with no power supply. I sprayed one
hammertone fire engine red, the other hammertone racing green.

Phil Weldon


"Fishface" <invalid.TakeThisOut@ddress.ok?> wrote in message
news:SoE6j.4236$k22.1413@trnddc02...
| Phil Weldon wrote:
|
| > It is not hard at all to cut a whole in a steel or aluminum side panel.
|
| Would you really cut a hole in this thing?!
| http://www.silentpcreview.com/article741-page1.html
| Cutting a hole in the side would definitely let more inside noise out.
| And it's a layer of stainless, plastic, and aluminum! Stainless can be
| pretty tough. My RS nibbler broke long ago, and I never bought
| another.
|
|
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

'Howard Goldstein' wrote, in part:
| I now have two in, one out. The side panel is a no go with this case
| so I'm screwed.
|
| I need to try a few other configurations. It was the front in, the
| two back ones out. I turned the one on the rear around and temps are
| up 3 degrees on the CPU and 4 on the motherboard, which was easy to do
| but probably just set it up so that one fan was blowing about 3" of
| cool air to the exhaust and everything else stagnating . Next up is
| to swap the front one so it's sucking and
_____

I see, after looking more carefully at the Antec P182 review, that all three
case fans are 120 mm. I'd think that with the front fan blowing into the
case, the top fan blowing into the case, and the exhaust fan blowing out of
the case you would get reasonable temperatures. I'd check the air
temperatures within the case at various points. The temperature reported by
the BIOS and whatever system health utility you have is from a thermistor
mounted on the motherboard. This temperature can vary widely depending on
exactly where it is located. If it is near the DC-DC converter/regulators
for the CPU, then that temperature will be much higher than if the
thermistor is located at any other location.

Phil Weldon

"Howard Goldstein" <hgoldste.RemoveThis@mpcs.com> wrote in message
news:1197217551.78703@news.queue.to...
| On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:40 -0500, Phil Weldon <not.disclosed.RemoveThis@example.com>
wrote:
| : 'Howard Goldstein' wrote, in part:
| : | I accidentally confused things here. It's 100cfm between two 50cfm
| : | fans soon to be turned into suckers like their owner, and one 50
| : | blowing in who I'm going to work very hard to exhaustion. The case
| : | itself has some pretty large vents.
| : |
| : | The 50 blowing in has the screen filter that comes with the Antec case
| : | (this is the puppy here:
| :
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025&Tpk=p182
| : | I would not recommend this case except for use in a suit's office, and
| : | then only with the rebate)
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Q6600 "safe" temps?