Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives

Tim,

Thanks for your post. A Flash drive is a great idea, but I need more
space as the 2.5 laptop drive has been used in a desktop unit for its
relative quietness compared to a regular 3.5" drive. So I guess I'll
stay with another 2.5" drive.

Thanks again.

William

On Apr 8, 5:49 pm, Tim_Mac <timm....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi william. bear in mind that a 4200 drive will give even more
> miserable performance than a 5400 drive. although it should be
> m++arginally quieter. a 10k raptor drive in comparison is a bit of a
> tiger.
> i've just swapped out my mechanical drive and repla+ced it with an 8Gb
> compact flash card + IDE adaptor. the laptop is now totally silent
> except for the quiet fan, and the performance benefit is amazing,
> vista boots in about 15 seconds and programs load and close
> instantly. vLite enabled a 2Gb vista installation and i don't need a
> whole of software on the laptop anyway (office, visual studio, sql
> server etc) so it has turned out great. thought you may be interested
> if you want to reduce noise. getting rid of the hard drive should
> also extend battery life, but i accept that not everyone will be happy
> with such limited storage space. you could get a cheap 8 or 16 Gb USB
> drive to help. a guide to the steps i took is online athttp://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=219225
>
> tim
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

Tim_Mac wrote:

<edited for brevity>

> i've just swapped out my mechanical drive and replaced it with an 8Gb
> compact flash card + IDE adaptor. the laptop is now totally silent
> except for the quiet fan, and the performance benefit is amazing,
> vista boots in about 15 seconds and programs load and close
> instantly. vLite enabled a 2Gb vista installation and i don't need a
> whole of software on the laptop anyway (office, visual studio, sql
> server etc) so it has turned out great. thought you may be interested
> if you want to reduce noise. getting rid of the hard drive should
> also extend battery life, but i accept that not everyone will be happy
> with such limited storage space. you could get a cheap 8 or 16 Gb USB
> drive to help. a guide to the steps i took is online at
> http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=219225

<edited>

Hello, Tim:

I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
100,000, typically), if I were you.

Good luck!


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:10:58 -0500 John Turco <jtur.RemoveThis@concentric.net> wrote
in Message id: <47FF4742.D30883.RemoveThis@concentric.net>:

>Tim_Mac wrote:
>
><edited for brevity>
>
>> i've just swapped out my mechanical drive and replaced it with an 8Gb
>> compact flash card + IDE adaptor. the laptop is now totally silent
>> except for the quiet fan, and the performance benefit is amazing,
>> vista boots in about 15 seconds and programs load and close
>> instantly. vLite enabled a 2Gb vista installation and i don't need a
>> whole of software on the laptop anyway (office, visual studio, sql
>> server etc) so it has turned out great. thought you may be interested
>> if you want to reduce noise. getting rid of the hard drive should
>> also extend battery life, but i accept that not everyone will be happy
>> with such limited storage space. you could get a cheap 8 or 16 Gb USB
>> drive to help. a guide to the steps i took is online at
>> http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=219225
>
><edited>
>
>Hello, Tim:
>
>I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
>flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
>100,000, typically), if I were you.

Some industrial flash is good for 2 million writes. Combine that with wear
leveling this is not as bad as you might think. We've shipped over a
thousand XP embedded systems on CF in the last few years, and I've yet to
see a drive wear out.
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

JW wrote:
>
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:10:58 -0500 John Turco <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net> wrote
> in Message id: <47FF4742.D30883 RemoveThis @concentric.net>:
>
> >Tim_Mac wrote:
> >
> ><edited for brevity>
> >
> >> i've just swapped out my mechanical drive and replaced it with an 8Gb
> >> compact flash card + IDE adaptor. the laptop is now totally silent
> >> except for the quiet fan, and the performance benefit is amazing,
> >> vista boots in about 15 seconds and programs load and close
> >> instantly. vLite enabled a 2Gb vista installation and i don't need a
> >> whole of software on the laptop anyway (office, visual studio, sql
> >> server etc) so it has turned out great. thought you may be interested
> >> if you want to reduce noise. getting rid of the hard drive should
> >> also extend battery life, but i accept that not everyone will be happy
> >> with such limited storage space. you could get a cheap 8 or 16 Gb USB
> >> drive to help. a guide to the steps i took is online at
> >> http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=219225
> >
> ><edited>
> >
> >Hello, Tim:
> >
> >I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
> >flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
> >100,000, typically), if I were you.
>
> Some industrial flash is good for 2 million writes. Combine that with wear
> leveling this is not as bad as you might think. We've shipped over a
> thousand XP embedded systems on CF in the last few years, and I've yet to
> see a drive wear out.


Hello, JW:

Oh, I was already aware of "wear leveling," but, didn't know about that "2
million writes" stuff.

Thanks, for the info!


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

"John Turco" <jtur DeleteThis @concentric.net> wrote in message news:4801CA94.553D1020@concentric.net...
> JW wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:10:58 -0500 John Turco <jtur DeleteThis @concentric.net> wrote
>> in Message id: <47FF4742.D30883 DeleteThis @concentric.net>:
>>
>> >I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
>> >flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
>> >100,000, typically), if I were you.
>>
>> Some industrial flash is good for 2 million writes. Combine that with wear
>> leveling this is not as bad as you might think. We've shipped over a
>> thousand XP embedded systems on CF in the last few years, and I've yet to
>> see a drive wear out.
>
> Oh, I was already aware of "wear leveling," but, didn't know about that "2
> million writes" stuff.
>
If you knew about wear leveling all along,
why do continue to post your paranoid claim about flash memory "wearing out"?
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

Eric Gisin wrote:
>
> "John Turco" <jtur.RemoveThis@concentric.net> wrote in message news:4801CA94.553D1020@concentric.net...
> > JW wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:10:58 -0500 John Turco <jtur.RemoveThis@concentric.net> wrote
> >> in Message id: <47FF4742.D30883.RemoveThis@concentric.net>:
> >>
> >> >I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
> >> >flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
> >> >100,000, typically), if I were you.
> >>
> >> Some industrial flash is good for 2 million writes. Combine that with wear
> >> leveling this is not as bad as you might think. We've shipped over a
> >> thousand XP embedded systems on CF in the last few years, and I've yet to
> >> see a drive wear out.
> >
> > Oh, I was already aware of "wear leveling," but, didn't know about that "2
> > million writes" stuff.
> >
> If you knew about wear leveling all along,
> why do continue to post your paranoid claim about flash memory "wearing out"?


Hello, Eric:

No "paranoia" involved, wise guy. <g> Besides, if the Windows "page file" is
enabled, even 2,000,000 write cycles will be used up, pretty quickly -- wear
leveling, or not.


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur.RemoveThis@concentric.net>
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

"John Turco" <jtur RemoveThis @concentric.net> wrote in message news:48080A66.F79460DA@concentric.net...
> Eric Gisin wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Oh, I was already aware of "wear leveling," but, didn't know about that "2
>> > million writes" stuff.
>> >
>> If you knew about wear leveling all along,
>> why do continue to post your paranoid claim about flash memory "wearing out"?
>
>
> Hello, Eric:
>
> No "paranoia" involved, wise guy. <g> Besides, if the Windows "page file" is
> enabled, even 2,000,000 write cycles will be used up, pretty quickly -- wear
> leveling, or not.
>
Raving Lunatic. Page file I/O is *much* less than your total I/O. Get some RAM if not.
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

Previously John Turco <jtur DeleteThis @concentric.net> wrote:
> Eric Gisin wrote:
>>
>> "John Turco" <jtur DeleteThis @concentric.net> wrote in message news:4801CA94.553D1020@concentric.net...
>> > JW wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:10:58 -0500 John Turco <jtur DeleteThis @concentric.net> wrote
>> >> in Message id: <47FF4742.D30883 DeleteThis @concentric.net>:
>> >>
>> >> >I followed the link you've provided, above...still, I'd be concerned about
>> >> >flash memory's relatively limited number of rewrite cycles (approximately
>> >> >100,000, typically), if I were you.
>> >>
>> >> Some industrial flash is good for 2 million writes. Combine that with wear
>> >> leveling this is not as bad as you might think. We've shipped over a
>> >> thousand XP embedded systems on CF in the last few years, and I've yet to
>> >> see a drive wear out.
>> >
>> > Oh, I was already aware of "wear leveling," but, didn't know about that "2
>> > million writes" stuff.
>> >
>> If you knew about wear leveling all along,
>> why do continue to post your paranoid claim about flash memory "wearing out"?


> Hello, Eric:

> No "paranoia" involved, wise guy. <g> Besides, if the Windows "page
> file" is enabled, even 2,000,000 write cycles will be used up,
> pretty quickly -- wear leveling, or not.

No flash can do 2'000'000 writes per cell. That is after wear
leveling and/or ECC. SLC flash does around 100'000 writes reliably
per cell. MLC is still stuck in the 10'000 range. However wear leveling
and ECC are facts and will extend device life significantly.
Some flash drives can even do defect remapping, AFAIK, which will
extend device life even more.

There are also things you can do to reduce wear. One thing is
realizing that pageing actually can be done on ramdisk to a degree.
Surprising, but true. Pageing is not only about having more memory,
but also about being able to use precious direcly mapped memopry in
multiple instances. Some OSes do not need to do that. Linux, for
example, runns pretty well without swap-space. XP is braind-damaged
that way and needs some minimal amount, which can be provided
on ramdisk.

Side note: The german computer magazine c't occasinally tries
to break FLASH devices by overwriting. So far they have not
succeeded with current memory sticks and SSDs.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

On 18 Apr 2008 04:29:00 GMT Arno Wagner <me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net> wrote in Message
id: <66qmccF2jc12hU1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>:

>No flash can do 2'000'000 writes per cell.


http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS8GCF45I-D
"Endurance: 2,000,000 Program/Erase cycles"
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

fact is... flash memory has been used successfully for a long time
before it's current mainstream introduction. but it is new to a lot
of people who don't trust it, which is also understandable. if you
are a skeptic, then wait another 5 years until you're comfortable with
it. in the meantime, let the early adopters prove you right or wrong,
either way they're doing you a favour
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

Previously JW <none.TakeThisOut@dev.null> wrote:
> On 18 Apr 2008 04:29:00 GMT Arno Wagner <me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net> wrote in Message
> id: <66qmccF2jc12hU1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>:

>>No flash can do 2'000'000 writes per cell.


> http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS8GCF45I-D
> "Endurance: 2,000,000 Program/Erase cycles"

I stated "per cell". They state nothing, so likely "per device"
as manufacturers tend to pick the biggest number.

Maybe also the "Built-in dynamic defect management and error
correction ECC technology" is a hint?

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

On 18 Apr 2008 12:09:39 GMT Arno Wagner <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in Message
id: <66rhc3F2lh7s3U1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>:

>Previously JW <none.DeleteThis@dev.null> wrote:
>> On 18 Apr 2008 04:29:00 GMT Arno Wagner <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in Message
>> id: <66qmccF2jc12hU1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>:
>
>>>No flash can do 2'000'000 writes per cell.
>
>
>> http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS8GCF45I-D
>> "Endurance: 2,000,000 Program/Erase cycles"
>
>I stated "per cell". They state nothing, so likely "per device"
>as manufacturers tend to pick the biggest number.

I dunno, I'm figuring that they mean the entire device. But I could be
wrong.
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives 

"JW" <none RemoveThis @dev.null> wrote in message news:1gbh04ddmiifecps7j04c9t8ut30q1k7pr@4ax.com...
> On 18 Apr 2008 12:09:39 GMT Arno Wagner <me RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote in Message
> id: <66rhc3F2lh7s3U1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>:
>
>>Previously JW <none RemoveThis @dev.null> wrote:
>>> On 18 Apr 2008 04:29:00 GMT Arno Wagner <me RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote in Message
>>> id: <66qmccF2jc12hU1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>:
>>
>>>>No flash can do 2'000'000 writes per cell.
>>
>>
>>> http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS8GCF45I-D
>>> "Endurance: 2,000,000 Program/Erase cycles"
>>
>>I stated "per cell". They state nothing, so likely "per device"
>>as manufacturers tend to pick the biggest number.
>
> I dunno, I'm figuring that they mean the entire device. But I could be
> wrong.

Which implies you could kill the drive in a few hours of writing.

Millions of people use flash drive for TEMP, browser cache, pagefile, ready-boost.
You would expect many reports of them failing if writing too much was a problem.
It would take about a month for my IE cache to reach 1GB, or 2M blocks.
The directory entries and index.dat are frequently rewritten.
 >> Stay informed about: Quietness of 2.5" vs. 1.8" Notebook Drives