So few capacitors on motherboard?

"Dave C." <spammersdie.TakeThisOut@ahorribledeath.now> wrote in message news:<kKednd4qupsbQ2uiRVn-hQ.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...

  >> I just bought an ECS K7VTA3 ver. 8c mobo and noticed that it has
  >> only about a third as many electrolytic capacitors as most mobos.

 >
 > Ummmm . . . although this should be obvious, not all capacitors
 > are equal. You can't make assumptions about the design of a
 > motherboard based on counting the number of physical capacitors.
 > In order to compare two motherboards, you would need to determine
 > the function of *each* capacitor, and then find the specifications
 > for *each* capacitor that performs a similar function. But for
 > comparison purposes, I've got a fairly recent Athlon XP motherboard
 > by Epox (nforce 2 chipset) that has 13 capacitors clustered around
 > the voltage regulators. There are only 28 total on the entire
 > board, nowhere near 40 or 45. It has been running rock-solid stable
 > for several months, no problems at all. When I was planning the
 > system, my plan "B" was a board made by ECS. I don't think you'll
 > have any problem with your ECS board. The power supply has more to
 > do with stability than capacitors on the motherboard.

I'm probably worrying about nothing, but it's just strange that the
same manufacturer would cut way back on capacitors for a mobo that has
roughly the same features and number and types of chips as the the
K7S5A Pro (even though the former uses a VIA chipset and the SiS).
And while it's only ignorant speculation on my part, I can't believe
that the new mobo's chips are far more tolerant of spikes or dirty
signals than the other mobo's are. I also didn't see any surface
mount electrolytics, just ceramics, and there seemed to be just as
many ceramics on the older board. But an engineer friend suggested
that maybe the new mobo needs fewer bypass capcitors because it has a
second ground plane inside -- something about lowering the Q of the
board that way.

 > Get a good power supply, and you should be all set.

I'm sure won't use my $13 PSU with it; I'm gonna hook it up to my
deluxe $15 one! Actually they're really good, Delta and
Fortron/Sparkle, bought as close-outs.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

kony <spam DeleteThis @spam.com> wrote in message news:<ak2evv0tan0hd2kuttq0cacen0f1itlgjt DeleteThis @4ax.com>...

  >> ECS K7VTA3 ver. 8c mobo has only about a third as many
  >> electrolytic capacitors as most mobos.

  >> my other ECS mobos, including a K7S5A Pro ver. 5, each have
  >> about 45 electrolytics,

 >Is it instable?

It's been 100% stable since testing started last night, except when I
set a jumper wrong and overclocked the 1.6 GHz CPU to 2.0 GHz. I
don't overclock, except for my 300 MHz Celeron, which has been at 450
MHz for four years.

 >Are the capacitors running warm->hot?

They're all cool, as are all the transistors and chokes, except the
transistor of the linear regulator of the 2.5V memory supply. OTOH my
ECS P4S5A2 has some switching transistors and adjacent capacitors that
have run a bit warm since new, and that old Celeron mobo has a 3.3V
switching regulator transistor and capacitors that have been at 70C
for four years (was 90C without heatsink).

 >I'm sure it is a cost-cutting measure, since ECS doesn't use any caps
 >of high enough quality that fewer could substitute, like Rubycon MBZ,
 >Fujitsu hybrids, or OS-Cons.

All the capacitors are OST brand, except for a few black & white
Luxon-G
bypass caps. My other ECS boards use Luxons for bypass, another brand
for their
switching regulators. I didn't see any chip electrolytics, only chip
ceramics, and this K7VTA3 mobo doesn't seem to have any more of them
than my older ECS mobo.

 >You could add some, but what's the point? A lot of time and $ on
more
 >caps, when a different board would have more already.
 >i suppose if you have the spare caps lying around it's something to
 >try, though it might be better left unused, as a backup board,
system,
 >in case of emergency.

An engineer friend of mine bought three of these mobos and added the
missing capacitors, but he does that with every board he gets. He
suggested that the K7VTA3 could require fewer capacitors if it has a
second
ground plane inside that "cuts the Q" of the circuit board.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

On 3 Jan 2004 06:45:45 -0800, larrymoencurly.TakeThisOut@my-deja.com
(larrymoencurly) wrote:

 >I just bought an ECS K7VTA3 ver. 8c mobo and noticed that it has only
 >about a third as many electrolytic capacitors as most mobos. Has
 >anyone ever seen a fairly recent mobo with so few?
 >
 >Before you say that ECS makes cheap mobos (this one was $40 at Fry's,
 >with Duron CPU), my other ECS mobos, including a K7S5A Pro ver. 5,
 >each have about 45 electrolytics, and even my old Soyo Intel 810i
 >mobo, which has only a single-phase CPU core voltage regulator, has
 >over 40.
 >
 >The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left out,
 >including one for the CPU core voltage regulator, while on my K7S5A
 >only about two were left out. Has anyone ever noticed an improvement
 >in stability by adding missing capacitors?

Is it instable?
In what way if so? Memory bus or overclocking or ???
You may need test these parts in another system to get a feel for
their potential (if you haven't already) so the board is the only
variable.

Are the capacitors running warm->hot?

I'm sure it is a cost-cutting measure, since ECS doesn't use any caps
of high enough quality that fewer could substitute, like Rubycon MBZ,
Fujitsu hybrids, or OS-Cons. Then again, larger can-size means lower
ESR in same "family", so fewer would work. Strategically placed chip
caps could work too, but I think it's pretty much a given that the
board won't last as long, except that it's using a (now) relatively
low-powered CPU, which will help.

You could add some, but what's the point? A lot of time and $ on more
caps, when a different board would have more already.
i suppose if you have the spare caps lying around it's something to
try, though it might be better left unused, as a backup board, system,
in case of emergency.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

On 3 Jan 2004 12:41:19 -0800, larrymoencurly.TakeThisOut@my-deja.com
(larrymoencurly) wrote:

<snip>

 >But an engineer friend suggested
 >that maybe the new mobo needs fewer bypass capcitors because it has a
 >second ground plane inside -- something about lowering the Q of the
 >board that way.

It's a nice theory, but considering ECS, I doubt it.

  >> Get a good power supply, and you should be all set.
 >
 >I'm sure won't use my $13 PSU with it; I'm gonna hook it up to my
 >deluxe $15 one! Actually they're really good, Delta and
 >Fortron/Sparkle, bought as close-outs.

The Delta should be pretty good for that... IIRC, it's output filter
caps are larger than most ~400W models... here on Noah's ark I have
two of everything, including those Deltas. I like the Compaq/LiteOns
more though.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

In article <755e968a.0401030645.37d4983.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
larrymoencurly.RemoveThis@my-deja.com says...
 > I just bought an ECS K7VTA3 ver. 8c mobo and noticed that it has only
 > about a third as many electrolytic capacitors as most mobos. Has
 > anyone ever seen a fairly recent mobo with so few?
 >
 > Before you say that ECS makes cheap mobos (this one was $40 at Fry's,
 > with Duron CPU), my other ECS mobos, including a K7S5A Pro ver. 5,
 > each have about 45 electrolytics, and even my old Soyo Intel 810i
 > mobo, which has only a single-phase CPU core voltage regulator, has
 > over 40.
 >
 > The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left out,
 > including one for the CPU core voltage regulator, while on my K7S5A
 > only about two were left out. Has anyone ever noticed an improvement
 > in stability by adding missing capacitors?
 >
Pointless exercise. You won't gain any stability by adding them. The
reason they'll be missing is because the components for a particular
motherboard feature won't be there.


--
Conor

"Cogito Eggo Sum" - "I think, therefore I am a waffle"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

Conor <conor_turton RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a629882fc8a1c26989c94 RemoveThis @news.claranews.com>...

  >> The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left
  >> out, including one for the CPU core voltage regulator,
  >> Has anyone ever noticed an improvement in stability by adding
  >> missing capacitors?

 > Pointless exercise. You won't gain any stability by adding them.
 > The reason they'll be missing is because the components for a
 > particular motherboard feature won't be there.

On this mobo there aren't any missing chips, unlike on my Intel 801i,
but there seem to be missing bypass electrolytics, and for some of the
big chips the closest electrolytics are a lot farther away than they
are for the big chips on my other mobos.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

In article <755e968a.0401031241.2dd1417d.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
larrymoencurly.DeleteThis@my-deja.com says...

 > I'm probably worrying about nothing, but it's just strange that the
 > same manufacturer would cut way back on capacitors for a mobo that has
 > roughly the same features and number and types of chips as the the
 > K7S5A Pro

Err, WHY? Is it exactly the same design? No.


--
Conor

"Cogito Eggo Sum" - "I think, therefore I am a waffle"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:40:30 -0000, Conor <conor_turton DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:

 >In article <755e968a.0401031241.2dd1417d DeleteThis @posting.google.com>,
 >larrymoencurly@my-deja.com says...
 >
  >> I'm probably worrying about nothing, but it's just strange that the
  >> same manufacturer would cut way back on capacitors for a mobo that has
  >> roughly the same features and number and types of chips as the the
  >> K7S5A Pro
 >
 >Err, WHY? Is it exactly the same design? No.

Actually it is to a large extent... supports similar processors,
chipsets, plug-in devices... might even have the exact same
regulators/controller as on their other boards with more capactors.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:39:50 -0000, Conor <conor_turton.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

 >In article <755e968a.0401030645.37d4983.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
 >larrymoencurly@my-deja.com says...
  >> I just bought an ECS K7VTA3 ver. 8c mobo and noticed that it has only
  >> about a third as many electrolytic capacitors as most mobos. Has
  >> anyone ever seen a fairly recent mobo with so few?
  >>
  >> Before you say that ECS makes cheap mobos (this one was $40 at Fry's,
  >> with Duron CPU), my other ECS mobos, including a K7S5A Pro ver. 5,
  >> each have about 45 electrolytics, and even my old Soyo Intel 810i
  >> mobo, which has only a single-phase CPU core voltage regulator, has
  >> over 40.
  >>
  >> The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left out,
  >> including one for the CPU core voltage regulator, while on my K7S5A
  >> only about two were left out. Has anyone ever noticed an improvement
  >> in stability by adding missing capacitors?
  >>
 >Pointless exercise. You won't gain any stability by adding them. The
 >reason they'll be missing is because the components for a particular
 >motherboard feature won't be there.

Not necessarily true. I've done it, in some cases it helps. This is
more when overclocking though, but it stands to reason that as the
capacitors age, if they once prevented overclocking by their bare
adequacy, they'll sooner prevent spec'd speed.

The bottom line is that it's done to cut costs. Clearly none of the
(other) manufacturers want to wastefully add expensive parts where
there's no benefit.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

In article <um3hvv08fda6j9252mcori2f73kg0aiobv DeleteThis @4ax.com>, spam DeleteThis @spam.com
says...

  > >Err, WHY? Is it exactly the same design? No.
 >
 > Actually it is to a large extent... supports similar processors,
 > chipsets, plug-in devices... might even have the exact same
 > regulators/controller as on their other boards with more capactors.
 >
Having all of the above the same does not make the design the same. It
merely means there are shared components. There are 1000's of ways of
interconnecting.

--
Conor

"Cogito Eggo Sum" - "I think, therefore I am a waffle"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

"larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly.RemoveThis@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:755e968a.0401030645.37d4983@posting.google.com...
 >
 > The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left out,
 > including one for the CPU core voltage regulator, while on my K7S5A
 > only about two were left out. Has anyone ever noticed an improvement
 > in stability by adding missing capacitors?

Yikes, you are scaring me. Look under the hood of your car. If you notice
a "missing" carburetor, you should add one!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

"jeffc" <nobody.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> writes:
 >
 > "larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly.RemoveThis@my-deja.com> wrote in message
 > news:755e968a.0401030645.37d4983@posting.google.com...
  > >
  > > The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were left out,
  > > including one for the CPU core voltage regulator, while on my K7S5A
  > > only about two were left out. Has anyone ever noticed an improvement
  > > in stability by adding missing capacitors?
 >
 > Yikes, you are scaring me. Look under the hood of your car. If you notice
 > a "missing" carburetor, you should add one!

Careful inspections of cars reveals electrical connectors that "don't
go anywhere". This does not necessarily mean that you car is bad.

Jeff
--
Remove "no" and "spam" from email address to reply.
If it says "This is not spam!", it's surely a lie.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard? 

jeff findley <jeff.findley RemoveThis @no.sdrc.spam.com> wrote in message news:<yz9isjo7r4s.fsf RemoveThis @sgipd572.net.plm.eds.com>...

 > "jeffc" <nobody RemoveThis @nowhere.com> writes:

   >>> The K7VTA3 also has about six places where capacitors were
   >>> left out, including one for the CPU core voltage regulator,

  >> Yikes, you are scaring me. Look under the hood of your car.
  >> If you notice a "missing" carburetor, you should add one!
 >
 > Careful inspections of cars reveals electrical connectors that
 > "don't go anywhere". This does not necessarily mean that you car
 > is bad.

What about the Dodge Neon, built with something like 900 fasteners in
the chassis, or less than half the usual number? I heard that this
caused problems, and I'm wondering if the ECS K7VTA3 ver. 5 is the
Dodge Neon of mobos. Its CPU core voltage regulator is 2-phase with
seven 3300uF filter capacitors (8th one left out), compared to 3-phase
with eleven 3300uF capacitors for the K7VTA3 ver. 3. I thought that
more phases at a given base frequency meant less capacitance was
needed, and while I don't know the ver. 3 base frequency, ver. 8 runs
at about the same 200 KHz as another 3-phase ECS mobo, the K7S5A Pro
(nine 3300uF capacitors).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So few capacitors on motherboard?