Thermal protection??

Please see my new comment in the thread "Re: Which sensor monitors CPU
Temp?"

thanks guys
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

In message <1197558528.12491.RemoveThis@news.queue.to> hgoldste.RemoveThis@mpcs.com (Howard
Goldstein) wrote:

>That configuration left me at 10C over ambient. Turning the top fan
>around to blow directly onto the relocated CPU cooler (top fan blows
>the 1-2" right onto the intake of the CPU cooler fan) knocked 2C off
>of the CPU at the expense of warming everything else up by 1C. I only
>have one somewhat warm drive in the upper chamber. The motherboard
>however is an extremely hot running 680i, the video card is a cheap
>essentially 2D graphics card, nothing else in the upper chamber.

What size/shape/type of CPU fan?

One thing I've been debating doing is removing the upper fan and ducting
from there to the intake of the CPU fan, and letting it exhaust directly
toward the rear exhaust -- As long as the rear exhaust is running faster
then the CPU, I'm thinking this should result in an acceptable airflow.

Unfortunately I'll have to swap out the CPU fan as my current one is not
conducive to ducting.

I've previously been a huge fan of the Zalman CNPS7700-AlCu, which
basically just blows down, running air through the fins and over the
motherboard, but this particular one is not fantastic for a case with
P180's airflow design.

(http://www.memoryexpress.com/Images/products/L/MX5164-0.jpg)

In my P180, I'm running a Zalman CNPS9700 NT, which basically just blows
directly rear, hitting the rear exhaust. In this configuration, as long
as I keep the rear fan above the speed of the CPU fan, it keeps the
system nice and cool. If the rear fan is running slower then the CPU
fan, the rest of the upper case heats up *fast*

(http://www.memoryexpress.com/Images/products/L/MX15680-0.jpg)

I'm running a P5W DH Deluxe, Q6600 (Core 2 Quad), a couple ATI Radeon HD
2600 Pros (lower end PCI-E, DX10), a couple optical drives, and
otherwise the upper chamber is empty, all of my drives are mounted in
the lower chamber.

I also mounted a couple internal USB ports to add a bluetooth USB
adapter inside the system (and previously I had a wifi USB adapter too,
although I no longer need that on my current mobo), but the connecting
cables are tied to the backplate, so they don't really interfere with
airflow.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

In message <fdq1m3dslvnqt4kjh23eugs1359v2vtsh4 RemoveThis @4ax.com> kony
<spam RemoveThis @spam.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:58:29 -0700, DevilsPGD
><spam_narf_spam RemoveThis @crazyhat.net> wrote:
>
>>Interesting, it is by far the coolest case I've ever owned, at least
>>when fully assembled. It kept my first generator Raptors a good 10-12C
>>cooler then any previous case, and keeps my current Q6600 a mere four
>>degrees above room temperature at idle.
>>
>>I am running the top and rear exhaust fans, plus an intake in the front.
>
>
>I find your description of "any previous case" ambiguous at
>best, and wrong at worst.

Ambiguous because I've owned better then a dozen cases, in the earlier
years purchased on price, then purchased based on visual appearance
(some of which I modded after the fact)

>Regardless of other factors, given any case with same intake
>area, same front fan config and a better HDD bay config, the
>temp should easily be lower than in the P180.
>
>Theresfore, I have to conclude you were only contrasting it
>with poor cases, instead of contemporary, better
>alternatives.

A couple older cases in the $30 range, most in the last five years in
the $100 range, up to around $160 (all prices without PSU)

So some were comparable to the P180 in price, and era (the P180 is at
least a couple years old now, I really don't know if there are more
recent entries that do a better job)

>Even a very basic single 80mm fan at low flow
>constrained by the hard drive bay, all air flowing through
>it, the difference will not be close to 10C.

The difference is that the hard drives only compete with the power
supply, they aren't butting into the same air the CPU and other
components are busy heating.

I am *only* using the drive mounts in the lower compartment, I do not
use the drive mount points in the upper compartment.

It's entirely possible that I could do the same with a more conventional
case and the same number of fans, but I haven't seen it done in a case
running anywhere near as quiet as the P180.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:18:16 -0700, DevilsPGD
<spam_narf_spam.DeleteThis@crazyhat.net> wrote:



>A couple older cases in the $30 range, most in the last five years in
>the $100 range, up to around $160 (all prices without PSU)

Any typical case with a front 80mm fan surrounded by the HDD
bay and two Raptors in it, and of course good front case
bezel intake area, should keep the drives cooler than in
that case. To have them around a dozen degrees hotter in a
different case only speaks about how poor the different case
was. Certainly there are cases much worse than a P180.


>
>So some were comparable to the P180 in price, and era (the P180 is at
>least a couple years old now, I really don't know if there are more
>recent entries that do a better job)
>
>>Even a very basic single 80mm fan at low flow
>>constrained by the hard drive bay, all air flowing through
>>it, the difference will not be close to 10C.
>
>The difference is that the hard drives only compete with the power
>supply, they aren't butting into the same air the CPU and other
>components are busy heating.

??

On any properly designed case the hard drives are the first
thing heating the ambient room air brought in through the
front HDD bay. The air is at room temp at the point of
reaching the HDDs, or some very tiny fraction of a degree
hotter due to about a watt of power a front fan uses.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:18:16 -0700, DevilsPGD
<spam_narf_spam.TakeThisOut@crazyhat.net> wrote:

>In message <fdq1m3dslvnqt4kjh23eugs1359v2vtsh4.TakeThisOut@4ax.com> kony
><spam.TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:58:29 -0700, DevilsPGD
>><spam_narf_spam.TakeThisOut@crazyhat.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting, it is by far the coolest case I've ever owned, at least
>>>when fully assembled. It kept my first generator Raptors a good 10-12C
>>>cooler then any previous case, and keeps my current Q6600 a mere four
>>>degrees above room temperature at idle.
>>>
>>>I am running the top and rear exhaust fans, plus an intake in the front.
>>
>>
>>I find your description of "any previous case" ambiguous at
>>best, and wrong at worst.
>
>Ambiguous because I've owned better then a dozen cases, in the earlier
>years purchased on price, then purchased based on visual appearance
>(some of which I modded after the fact)
>

Something needs to be clarified. For some reason I was
thinking the P180 had the rotated drive bay, perhaps
something another person wrote lead to this but now I don't
recall...

Anyway, the P180 drive configuration is not what I was
meaning to refer to previously, so all my comments with
regard to HDD cooling in it are non-applicable, in error.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

In message <1197645275.78324.DeleteThis@news.queue.to> hgoldste.DeleteThis@mpcs.com (Howard
Goldstein) wrote:

>What are you going to use for a duct? If I understand what you're
>going to do it's going to have to come down and turn 270 degrees to
>feed the right hand (directions are screwy, aren't they) side of the
>cooler.

I haven't decided on that one, but there is a fair amount of clearance,
possibly enough to use three 90 degree bends -- I saw a system that was
built using 80mm ducts with cable ties holding the bends bent... No idea
how stable it would be, in terms of being able to move the case around
after it's built, but it would make a fun project.

It's not a huge priority right now, and probably won't happen at all
until I swap motherboards or CPUs as my current CPU fan is not ductable
without a huge amount of pain.

> : (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Images/products/L/MX5164-0.jpg)
>
>I have one of the predecessors to that model an all copper one on a
>pendtium 4 P4P800 but it's on one of those cases with the duct built
>in to the side panel. Your 7700 would be perfect for a case like that
>

Yeah, that was my fan layout when I started using that CPU fan,
pre-P180, of course.

> : I'm running a P5W DH Deluxe, Q6600 (Core 2 Quad), a couple ATI Radeon HD
> : 2600 Pros (lower end PCI-E, DX10), a couple optical drives, and
> : otherwise the upper chamber is empty, all of my drives are mounted in
> : the lower chamber.
> :
> : I also mounted a couple internal USB ports to add a bluetooth USB
> : adapter inside the system (and previously I had a wifi USB adapter too,
> : although I no longer need that on my current mobo), but the connecting
> : cables are tied to the backplate, so they don't really interfere with
> : airflow.
>
>I like the internal bluetooth thing. Whose dongle are you using?

Actually a cheapo no-visible-branding one I had kicking around. I
pulled the plate off of a rear-mounting single USB port backplate I had
kicking around and used a cable tie to attach it inside the case where
it wouldn't blow around, then plugged in the BT adapter there.

I got lucky, the chipset I'm using has Vista support natively.

I've got it mounted inside one of the drive bays, I get decent reception
anywhere within my office, which is all I really care about.

>Like
>you I pulled wifi off the P5W right away since some sort of
>interaction with that wifi card was keeping the P5W from POSTing when
>I had other USB peripherals attached.

Ahh, that's what that is -- I pulled the wifi card off of my desktop to
free up the USB header (and never ended up using it), I never could
figure out why originally both of my P5Ws had issues and now only one
does -- I did a bunch of changes when I pulled the wifi card, including
video, CPU and RAM (I was upgrading anyway, not trying to fix that
specific problem, I'd just resigned myself to popping the USB cable to
my hub every once in a while)

On my second P5W, I used the BIOS to disable the 7/8 USB port, disabling
the wifi card without removing it, and it still has trouble POSTing. It
hasn't been a priority to figure out since I rarely use any USB devices
on that box, it runs headless in the basement most of the time.

Looking at it, it's a stupid sideways screw... Damn you Asus.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:43:12 -0700, DevilsPGD
<spam_narf_spam DeleteThis @crazyhat.net> wrote:

>In message <1197645275.78324 DeleteThis @news.queue.to> hgoldste DeleteThis @mpcs.com (Howard
>Goldstein) wrote:
>
>>What are you going to use for a duct? If I understand what you're
>>going to do it's going to have to come down and turn 270 degrees to
>>feed the right hand (directions are screwy, aren't they) side of the
>>cooler.
>
>I haven't decided on that one, but there is a fair amount of clearance,
>possibly enough to use three 90 degree bends -- I saw a system that was
>built using 80mm ducts with cable ties holding the bends bent... No idea
>how stable it would be, in terms of being able to move the case around
>after it's built, but it would make a fun project.
>


Keep in mind that moving a volume of lower presssure air as
an intake from a duct, AND having bends in it, will
significantly reduce airflow. While the idea of ducting is
ok in general, this seems a very poor scenario to get
benefit from it.

IMO, you have no need to do this, if it would matter at all
it seems to point to insufficient case intake... because if
the case temp is high enough that ducting in fresh air would
matter, simply raising case intake rate results in cooler
air in the most important way possible - cooling down the
parts it passes on the way to the processor.

What happens if you provide a separate ducted intake while
the exhaust rate is the same? It reduces other airflow
intake in the case and makes the other parts run even
hotter.

It is possible to make this work either way but double
ducting is a very inefficient solution, normally a cooling
system using ductwork like this will have a relatively loud
squirrel cage blower just to get the air moving at
reasonable rates.

A relatively straight exhaust duct from heatsink to rear
case exhaust may not have so much penalty, and since still
maintains the same intake/exhaust impedance ratio (or at
least much closer to it), that in conjunction with better
case front intake tends to be the more optimal solution.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection?? 

In message <1198332367.37616.RemoveThis@news.queue.to> hgoldste.RemoveThis@mpcs.com (Howard
Goldstein) wrote:

> : Looking at it, it's a stupid sideways screw... Damn you Asus.
>
>Motherboard needs to be pulled

I *finally* got around to doing this (my uptime report indicates I've
only rebooted three times since then), I was able to remove the wifi
card without pulling the motherboard out, the side-ways screw is
accessible if you have a short screw driver and a bit of patience.
 >> Stay informed about: Thermal protection??