You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

"jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> The term " Mebi ", and the rest are fairly new terms, introduced by a
> standards authority, for obvious reasons. And In the hope that they
> will become mainstream.
....
> MebiByte is a bit of a tongue twister, like Megabyte gone wrong.

Moreover, "Mebibyte", "Kibibyte", etc, sound (and look) _incredibly
stupid_. I'm sure as hell not going to use them, for that reason alone.

And if nobody uses them, they will go away.

This is why it's a good idea for standards authorities to stick to
standardizing common practice, instead of attempting to invent their
own. When they attempt to do the latter, then more often than not
simply screw it up royally, and then we're left with the annoyance of
having to ignore a "standard".

-Miles

--
Dawn, n. When men of reason go to bed.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

"Miles Bader" <miles.bader.DeleteThis@necel.com> wrote in message
news:buomyqdt7i2.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com...
> "jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>> The term " Mebi ", and the rest are fairly new terms, introduced by a
>> standards authority, for obvious reasons. And In the hope that they
>> will become mainstream.
> ...
>> MebiByte is a bit of a tongue twister, like Megabyte gone wrong.
>
> Moreover, "Mebibyte", "Kibibyte", etc, sound (and look) _incredibly
> stupid_. I'm sure as hell not going to use them, for that reason alone.

I agree that they sound silly, but not using a standard term because you
don't like the sound/look of them is just immature!

> And if nobody uses them, they will go away.

Unfortunately for you, there are plenty using them - Ubuntu for example.
They actually look pretty good on screen - GiB looks very 'technical'.

> This is why it's a good idea for standards authorities to stick to
> standardizing common practice, instead of attempting to invent their
> own. When they attempt to do the latter, then more often than not
> simply screw it up royally, and then we're left with the annoyance of
> having to ignore a "standard".

But people ignoring the standard is the exact annoyance that we have now.
Mega is a standard, defined long ago as 10^6. The computer industry can't
change that, but instead chooses to bury its heads in the sand and ignore
that long standing standard and use Mega to mean 2^20 instead! Standards
have to be defined by controlling bodies with authority, they don't just
become standard because lots of people use them! If we want Mega to mean
2^20, then we will have to have the standard changed and come up with a new
standard prefix for 10^6 for the rest of the world to use - I'll let you
tell them that they will need to change just about everything mathematical
ever written!
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On 8 Feb, 01:39, kony <s....RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote:
<snip>
> It is
> irrelevant that the prefixes mean something else in the
> decimal system because computers don't use the decimal
> system, it is only converted to that for the benefit of the
> users.
>

oh boy

well, this aspect of your argument is unique to you. I would be
suprised if anybody else nodded in agreement to that. Looks like
mishmash. You said this sort of thing in the previous thread that I
mentioned.

I only point that out, because if GT picks you up on this, and looks
good. It has no bearing on the rest of what GT is saying here, or his
main argument, which is his own sillyness.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:22:53 -0000, "GT"
<ContactGT_remove_ DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Miles Bader" <miles.bader DeleteThis @necel.com> wrote in message
>news:buomyqdt7i2.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com...
>> "jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39 DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>> The term " Mebi ", and the rest are fairly new terms, introduced by a
>>> standards authority, for obvious reasons. And In the hope that they
>>> will become mainstream.
>> ...
>>> MebiByte is a bit of a tongue twister, like Megabyte gone wrong.
>>
>> Moreover, "Mebibyte", "Kibibyte", etc, sound (and look) _incredibly
>> stupid_. I'm sure as hell not going to use them, for that reason alone.
>
>I agree that they sound silly, but not using a standard term because you
>don't like the sound/look of them is just immature!

They aren't standard terms, they are an attempt to redefine
what the standard terms are and always were.

One last time - in the computer industry these terms were
developed and used as standard terms, long before NIST tried
to redefine them. The industry ignores NIST because they
are not the industry that standardized the term.

If you want your quest to succeed you have to convince the
industry to stop using the terms and use yours instead. The
manufacturers and windows have to change first, THEN the
industry has done what it did in the first place, decided on
a standard term. No 3rd party can change the meaning. It is
irrelevant that the prefixes mean something else in the
decimal system because computers don't use the decimal
system, it is only converted to that for the benefit of the
users.


>
>> And if nobody uses them, they will go away.
>
>Unfortunately for you, there are plenty using them - Ubuntu for example.
>They actually look pretty good on screen - GiB looks very 'technical'.
>

No, it looks like they can't even understand basic computer
terms that've been around for decades.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:19:53 -0800 (PST),
"jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 8 Feb, 01:39, kony <s....TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> It is
>> irrelevant that the prefixes mean something else in the
>> decimal system because computers don't use the decimal
>> system, it is only converted to that for the benefit of the
>> users.
>>
>
>oh boy
>
>well, this aspect of your argument is unique to you. I would be
>suprised if anybody else nodded in agreement to that. Looks like
>mishmash. You said this sort of thing in the previous thread that I
>mentioned.
>

Which part? I'll be sure to send all my remarks to your
email address first for editing purposes, but that would
seem to defeat the purpose of offering my opinion instead of
yours.

The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
different than the decimal value. Today we might think they
should have used a different prefix. Perhaps they
should've, _but_ they didn't. On the other hand it's not as
though there aren't many words in our language that have
more than one definition. Exceptions are the rule.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On 8 Feb, 05:50, kony <s... RemoveThis @spam.com> wrote:
<snip>
> The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
> a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
> did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
> different than the decimal value.

this is "chinese"



<snip>
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On 8 Feb, 05:50, kony <s....RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:19:53 -0800 (PST),
> "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanle....RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 8 Feb, 01:39, kony <s....RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> It is
> >> irrelevant that the prefixes mean something else in the
> >> decimal system because computers don't use the decimal
> >> system, it is only converted to that for the benefit of the
> >> users.
>
> >oh boy
>
> >well, this aspect of your argument is unique to you. I would be
> >suprised if anybody else nodded in agreement to that. Looks like
> >mishmash.  You said this sort of thing in the previous thread that I
> >mentioned.
>
> Which part? <snip>

the part where you make use of words like binary, decimal, and number
system.

>The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
> a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
> did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
> different than the decimal value.  <snip>

I do understand what you are saying, which is what you said before,
and what I and Miles and we are all trying to drill into GT's head.

But the way you are using these terms just makes no sense.

What is "a prefix having a different value in the decimal system".
I know exactly what you mean, but what you wrote does not mean
anything.

Different value to what?

when you said "a prefix" were you referring to a 2^ prefix, or a 10^
prefix? I know what you mean, and I know what you would have written
if asked . you would have written binary prefix. But you did not say.
You define nothing.


Your mistake there (I can see how you misdefined things) is one does
not have a prefix like Mega having a different value in different
number systems. The 2^20 prefix is a different prefix to the 10^6
prefix, even though both go by the same name of Mega.

Furthermore,
It just so happens, that by some annoying terminology, the 2^20 prefix
is known as the binary prefix. Binary in a general sense can mean
boolean, or it can as in this case, related to powers of 2.
Binary prefix does not mean binary number system. Certainly not in
this case. If it was in the binary number system it would be in 1s and
0s.

I do understand what you mean. But the meaning of what you are writing
when -you- start using words like binary, decimal, number system,
prefix, together, is nonsense. no meaning at all.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

"GT" <ContactGT_remove_.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:
> Standards have to be defined by controlling bodies with authority,
> they don't just become standard because lots of people use them!

Hardly.

Standards authorities can help smooth the way, but they can equally well
just get in the way and botch things up. We should shun them when they
do the latter.

-Miles

--
Success, n. The one unpardonable sin against one's fellows.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:31:19 +0900, Miles Bader
<miles.bader RemoveThis @necel.com> wrote:

>"GT" <ContactGT_remove_ RemoveThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>> Standards have to be defined by controlling bodies with authority,
>> they don't just become standard because lots of people use them!
>
>Hardly.
>
>Standards authorities can help smooth the way, but they can equally well
>just get in the way and botch things up. We should shun them when they
>do the latter.
>
>-Miles

Controlling bodies with authority are seldom the ones that
actually create a standard, and NIST is not a controlling
authority in the computer industry.

GT doesn't want to accept that other bodies with supposed
authority, like Webster's dictionary, don't typically invent
new words but instead incorporate them after a large enough
group of people have settled on a standard definition.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:42:18 -0800 (PST),
"jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 8 Feb, 05:50, kony <s....DeleteThis@spam.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
>> a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
>> did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
>> different than the decimal value.
>
>this is "chinese"
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:42:18 -0800 (PST),
"jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 8 Feb, 05:50, kony <s....TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
>> a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
>> did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
>> different than the decimal value.
>
>this is "chinese"

how so?

If all else fails,
http://translate.google.com/translate_s?hl=en&q=chinese
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

"kony" <spam.TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote in message
news:3ccnq3lo6ec9m6scvhj0k3pnmva9spfvui@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:22:53 -0000, "GT"
> <ContactGT_remove_.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Miles Bader" <miles.bader.TakeThisOut@necel.com> wrote in message
>>news:buomyqdt7i2.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com...
>>> "jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanley39.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>> The term " Mebi ", and the rest are fairly new terms, introduced by a
>>>> standards authority, for obvious reasons. And In the hope that they
>>>> will become mainstream.
>>> ...
>>>> MebiByte is a bit of a tongue twister, like Megabyte gone wrong.
>>>
>>> Moreover, "Mebibyte", "Kibibyte", etc, sound (and look) _incredibly
>>> stupid_. I'm sure as hell not going to use them, for that reason alone.
>>
>>I agree that they sound silly, but not using a standard term because you
>>don't like the sound/look of them is just immature!
>
> They aren't standard terms, they are an attempt to redefine
> what the standard terms are and always were.

Mega is a standard term meaning 10^6. Mebi is a standard term meaning 2^20.
Trying to use Mean to mean 2^20 is an attempt to redefine the standard term
and is therefore wrong.

> One last time - in the computer industry these terms were
> developed and used as standard terms, long before NIST tried
> to redefine them. The industry ignores NIST because they
> are not the industry that standardized the term.

One last time - the computer industry didn't develop these terms. The terms
exists long before that and the computer industry has tried to re-define the
standard!

> If you want your quest to succeed you have to convince the
> industry to stop using the terms and use yours instead. The
> manufacturers and windows have to change first, THEN the
> industry has done what it did in the first place, decided on
> a standard term. No 3rd party can change the meaning. It is
> irrelevant that the prefixes mean something else in the
> decimal system because computers don't use the decimal
> system, it is only converted to that for the benefit of the
> users.

Kony, you have said this before and I have tried to explain to you. It
doesn't matter what information is stored inside something, we can count
quantity in any base we choose. Bits are binary digits, but I can still have
decimal 37 of them, there is nothing wrong with counting in the base
familiar to 99.99% of the planet's population! Coin tosses are binary
results (heads or tails = 0 or 1). I can count the number of coin tosses in
decimal just as validly as I can count bits in decimal. If you want to count
them in base 2, them please go ahead, but you will find that 2^10, 2^20 etc
are not a binary numbers so you are in fact still counting in base 10, so
your argument just crumbled around your ankles!

>
>>
>>> And if nobody uses them, they will go away.
>>
>>Unfortunately for you, there are plenty using them - Ubuntu for example.
>>They actually look pretty good on screen - GiB looks very 'technical'.
>>
>
> No, it looks like they can't even understand basic computer
> terms that've been around for decades.

Which computer terms are you talking about? Mega isn't a computer-specific
term its a mathematical term meaning 10^6.
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte 

<jameshanley39.RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ec43e14-0956-42a6-909f-28ebfbdb92bd@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Feb, 05:50, kony <s....RemoveThis@spam.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>> The industry did settle for a term that used a prefix having
>> a different value in the decimal system, knowing that it
>> did, choosing to do so to represent a binary value that was
>> different than the decimal value.
>
> this is "chinese"

As well as nonsense. Mega means 1,000,000 in decimal. You can convert this
decimal number to any base you choose, but the term mega still means 10^6.
No industry or individual is free to change that standard. Unfortunately
Microsoft has used the wrong value and everyone else has followed suit, but
it is still wrong! Just because one of the biggest companies in the world
mis-uses a term, doesn't mean we have changed the standard!
 >> Stay informed about: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte