Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

news.rcn.com <fountainpen RemoveThis @amexol.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?

It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.

> I suppose it IS safe to use them?

Not if the data isnt fully backed up.

> Isn't that what they are for?

Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.

> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard
> drive failure error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work for
> sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.

Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.

> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.

Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.

> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
> COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.

> I then went into windows and the problem persists.

Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.

> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.

Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.

> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.

> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.

> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones

Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this drive is going to be reliable?

Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

Then download another.
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

Arno Wagner wrote in news:6f9vjaFa3relU1@mid.individual.net
> Previously news.rcn.com <fountainpen.DeleteThis@amexol.com> wrote:
> > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
> > Travelstar please?

> I suppose it IS safe to use them?

Of course not.

> Isn't that what they are for?

Depends on what you are rambling on about. What's a spare cluster.

>
> > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed
> > the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error message.
> > I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work
> > for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.
> > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month
> > or so.

> > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters

No it doesn't.

> > and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???
>
> > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
>
> > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message 0x00, In
> > fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters. I must
> > have run it about ten times in a row by now.
>
> > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away.

Isn't that a problem!

> > No further dead
> > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

How disappointing.

>
> > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones or is there any
> > more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this
> > drive is going to be reliable? I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

> AFAIK DFT just runns a long SMART selftest.

SLTYK (so little that you know), Babblebot.

> For modern disks there really is not a lot more that you can do.

Like that modern drives are 100% different from a few years back,
moronic Babblebot.

> However there are more detailed
> resukts you can get. Get the SMART attributes with one of the
> numeorus SMRT tools out there. Personally I use the smartmontools
> (unerd Linux, also available as commandline tools under Windows).
> Other options are speedfan and everest.

> Best post the attributes here to get feedback.

Like that anyone here ever gets it right.

>
> Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
> news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
>> Travelstar please?
>
> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
>
>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?
>
> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
>
>> Isn't that what they are for?
>
> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
>
>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
>> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
>> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
>> before cutting dead.
>
> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
>
>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
>> month or so.
>
> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
> to that motherboard.
No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was
completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the
first I have seen of it
>
>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
>> running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???
>
> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
> actually bad.
That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much; This
is why I posted!!
>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.
>
> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
>
>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
>> clusters.
>
> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
> with a dying drive.
>
>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
>
>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
>> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.
>
> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
>
>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
>
> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT
I did download the everest tool you mentioned
>
>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?
>
> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
> drive.
> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
>
> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
> slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
> burning it to the CD?)
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

"news.rcn.com" <fountainpen.DeleteThis@amexol.com> wrote in message
news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
>> news.rcn.com <fountainpen.DeleteThis@amexol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120
>>> Gig Travelstar please?
>>
>> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
>>
>>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?
>>
>> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
>>
>>> Isn't that what they are for?
>>
>> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
>>
>>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
>>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
>>> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
>>> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
>>> before cutting dead.
>>
>> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
>> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
>>
>>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
>>> month or so.
>>
>> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
>> to that motherboard.
> No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse
> was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is
> the first I have seen of it
>>
>>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
>>> running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY
>>> message???
>>
>> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
>> actually bad.
Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK

There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5 which it
said was within normal paramters. 5 seems like the sort of figure produced
by a SMART sector replacement. I ran DFT at least ten times before it
reported that there were no (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call
Acer and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the
motherboard as you describe?

This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I
have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which is actually wrong??
I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem comes back before the
warranty expires

I should have said
> That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much; This
> is why I posted!!
>>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.
>>
>> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
>>
>>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
>>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
>>> clusters.
>>
>> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
>> with a dying drive.
>>
>>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
>>
>>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
>>> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.
>>
>> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
>>
>>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
>>
>> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
> Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away
> BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
>>
>>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
>>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?
>>
>> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
>> drive.
>> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
> Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
> reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
>>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
>>
>> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
>> slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
>> burning it to the CD?)
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

news.rcn.com wrote in news:w8-dnRhjZK5iNQzVnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@rcn.net
> "news.rcn.com" <fountainpen RemoveThis @amexol.com> wrote in message news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > "Rod Speed" rod.speed.aaa RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
> > > news.rcn.com <fountainpen RemoveThis @amexol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120
> > > > Gig Travelstar please?
> > >
> > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
> > >
> > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?
> > >
> > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
> > >
> > > > Isn't that what they are for?
> > >
> > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
> > >
> > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
> > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
> > > > message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
> > > > machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
> > > > before cutting dead.
> > >
> > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
> > > defaults wouldnt make any difference.
> > >
> > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
> > > > month or so.
> > >
> > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
> > > to that motherboard.
>
> > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse
> > was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is
> > the first I have seen of it
> > >
> > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
> > > > running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY
> > > > message???
> > >
> > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
> > > actually bad.

> Sorry, I was asked to post a report

Yes. Anytime soon now?

> and just said that everything was OK

And now you fall to the same mistake, isn't it.

>
> There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5 which it
> said was within normal paramters.

> 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.

Yeah, obviously. What else could it be, right?
Obviously SMART wouldn't have anything to do with it if it had been a hundred or more.
Then the fairies take over.

> I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no (more) bad sectors.

There's a clue in there somewhere.

> I wonder if I should call Acer and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the
> motherboard as you describe?

Only if it's the powersupply regulation on the board.
With 2 replacements already that isn't very likely.
More likely it's the drive itself or the drive caddy.

>
> This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I
> have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which is actually wrong??

Yeah, you have a working laptop. That's obviously not good.

> I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem comes back before the
> warranty expires

> I should have said

You a disorganized type of guy, yes?

> > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;
> > This is why I posted!!
> >
> > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
> > >
> > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
> > >
> > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
> > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
> > > > clusters.
> > >
> > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
> > > with a dying drive.
> > >
> > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
> > >
> > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
> > > > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.
> > >
> > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
> > >
> > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
> > >
> > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
> >
> > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away
> > BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
> > >
> > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
> > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?
> > >
> > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
> > > drive.
> > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
> >
> > Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
> > reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
> >
> > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
> > >
> > > Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
> > > slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
> > > burning it to the CD?)
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
>> news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote

>>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?

>> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.

>>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?

>> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.

>>> Isn't that what they are for?

>> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.

>>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
>>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
>>> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
>>> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or
>>> so before cutting dead.

>> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.

>>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.

>> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.

> No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was completely inoperative.

OK, the either its a rather unreliable motherboard or that pure bad luck or you've been furiously grave dancing again.

> If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the first I have seen of it

The SMART report will allow you to work out whether its the drive or the motherboard.

>>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
>>> COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

>> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.

> That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;

I didnt mean it like that. A positive message does mean that the fault isnt currently visible.

> This is why I posted!!

>>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.

>> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.

>>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
>>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.

>> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.

>>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.

>>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
>>> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

>> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.

>>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones

>> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

> Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you
> mentioned

>>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
>>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?

>> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
>> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

> Everything checks out successfully on SMART.

Sorry, I meant post the report here, dont just use the OKs, those are meaninless.

> It ran in a second or so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.

Post it here. Its the last number in each field that
matters and even then, interpreting those isnt trivial.

>>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

>> Then download another.

> (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
> burning it to the CD?)

You can get it in ready to use form using torrents.
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

news.rcn.com <fountainpen.TakeThisOut@amexol.com> wrote:
> "news.rcn.com" <fountainpen.TakeThisOut@amexol.com> wrote in message
> news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>
>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> news.rcn.com <fountainpen.TakeThisOut@amexol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a
>>>> 120 Gig Travelstar please?
>>>
>>> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
>>>
>>>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?
>>>
>>> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
>>>
>>>> Isn't that what they are for?
>>>
>>> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
>>>
>>>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
>>>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure
>>>> error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows
>>>> and the machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes
>>>> a day or so before cutting dead.
>>>
>>> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
>>> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
>>>
>>>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the
>>>> last month or so.
>>>
>>> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats
>>> common to that motherboard.
>> No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the
>> mouse was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the
>> mobo, this is the first I have seen of it
>>>
>>>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead
>>>> clusters and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED
>>>> SUCCESSFULLY message???
>>>
>>> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that
>>> arent actually bad.

> Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK

> There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5

And that shows that the drive has some bad sectors that have been replaced.

There are other relevant fields like pending and sectors that cant be replaced.

> which it said was within normal paramters.

It always does with the OK even with very dead drives.

> 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.

Yes, those sectors have been replaced. SMART is just reporting that.

> I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call Acer
> and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the motherboard as you describe?

Nope, it indicates that the drive is going bad.

That may be the only problem.

> This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I have in effect nothing to show Acer on
> this Mobo which is actually wrong??

Correct. But a drive that develops that many bad sectors will
usually develop more unless you were just badly overheating
the drive because its not been adequately cooled.

> I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem
> comes back before the warranty expires

It should do unless you were just badly overheating the drive
because its not been adequately cooled and that doesnt recur.
No need to replace the drive if that was the problem tho.

Post the full SMART report to be sure that there isnt more
useful information in it than just those replaced sectors.

It should report on the drive max temp too with a Hitachi drive.

Dont worry about 'squeeze', he's just some loon we keep in a padded cell for his own protection.

>> I should have said
>> That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean
>> much; This is why I posted!!
>>>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.
>>>
>>> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
>>>
>>>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
>>>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
>>>> clusters.
>>>
>>> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some
>>> faults, even with a dying drive.
>>>
>>>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
>>>
>>>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further
>>>> dead clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in
>>>> Windows.
>>>
>>> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
>>>
>>>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
>>>
>>> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
>> Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone
>> away BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
>>>
>>>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
>>>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?
>>>
>>> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for
>>> the drive.
>>> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
>> Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or
>> so and reports that everything passes the test and is within
>> parameters.
>>>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
>>>
>>> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve
>>> creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO
>>> out of that and burning it to the CD?)
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was
unable to find exception in any of it:

[ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK: Value is
normal
02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
normal
03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK:
Value is normal
04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK:
Always passing
05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK: Value is
normal
07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK: Value
is normal
08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
normal
09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK: Always
passing
0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK: Value
is normal
0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK: Always
passing
BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
passing
C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK: Always
passing
C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
passing
C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42 OK:
Always passing
C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK: Always
passing
C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always
passing

(I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download
anything from them)
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

Rod Speed wrote in news:6fel3rFb6rjfU1@mid.individual.net
> news.rcn.com <fountainpen DeleteThis @amexol.com> wrote:
> > "news.rcn.com" fountainpen DeleteThis @amexol.com> wrote in message news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> > > "Rod Speed" rod.speed.aaa DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
> > > > news.rcn.com <fountainpen DeleteThis @amexol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a
> > > > > 120 Gig Travelstar please?
> > > >
> > > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
> > > >
> > > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?
> > > >
> > > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
> > > >
> > > > > Isn't that what they are for?
> > > >
> > > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
> > > >
> > > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
> > > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure
> > > > > error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows
> > > > > and the machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes
> > > > > a day or so before cutting dead.
> > > >
> > > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
> > > > defaults wouldnt make any difference.
> > > >
> > > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the
> > > > > last month or so.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats
> > > > common to that motherboard.
> > > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the
> > > mouse was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the
> > > mobo, this is the first I have seen of it
> > > >
> > > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead
> > > > > clusters and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED
> > > > > SUCCESSFULLY message???
> > > >
> > > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that
> > > > arent actually bad.
>
> > Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK
>
> > There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5
>
> And that shows that the drive has some bad sectors that have been replaced.

Yes Rod, that's what he said. Your reading abilities are uncanny.

>
> There are other relevant fields like pending

> and sectors that cant be replaced.

No such field.
>
> > which it said was within normal paramters.

> It always does with the OK even with very dead drives.

Nope.

>
> > 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.
>
> Yes, those sectors have been replaced. SMART is just reporting that.
>
> > I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no
> > (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call Acer and ask them if they
> > think this points to a problem with the motherboard as you describe?
>
> Nope, it indicates that the drive is going bad.
>
> That may be the only problem.
>
> > This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone
> > away and I have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which
> > is actually wrong??

> Correct. But a drive that develops that many bad sectors

Yeah, a whopping 5. The drive is obviously deader than a door nail.

> will usually develop more unless you were just badly overheating
> the drive because its not been adequately cooled.
>
> > I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem
> > comes back before the warranty expires
>
> It should do unless you were just badly overheating the drive
> because its not been adequately cooled and that doesnt recur.
> No need to replace the drive if that was the problem tho.
>
> Post the full SMART report to be sure that there isnt more
> useful information in it than just those replaced sectors.
>
> It should report on the drive max temp too with a Hitachi drive.

> Dont worry about 'squeeze', he's just some loon we keep in a padded
> cell for his own protection.

Yes please, offer your wallet to the friendly pickpocket.
He will keep it in safe storage for you.

>
> > > I should have said
> > > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;
> > > This is why I posted!!
> > > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
> > > >
> > > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
> > > >
> > > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
> > > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
> > > > > clusters.
> > > >
> > > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some
> > > > faults, even with a dying drive.
> > > >
> > > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
> > > >
> > > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further
> > > > > dead clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in
> > > > > Windows.
> > > >
> > > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
> > > >
> > > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
> > > >
> > > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
> > > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has
> > > gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
> > > >
> > > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
> > > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?
> > > >
> > > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for
> > > > the drive.
> > > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
> > > Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or
> > > so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
> > > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
> > > >
> > > > Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve
> > > > creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO
> > > > out of that and burning it to the CD?)
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

Rod Speed wrote in news:6fekkgFb9h04U1@mid.individual.net
> news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
> > > news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote
>
> > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?
>
> > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
>
> > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?
>
> > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
>
> > > > Isn't that what they are for?
>
> > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
>
> > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
> > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
> > > > message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
> > > > machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or
> > > > so before cutting dead.
>
> > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.
>
> > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.
>
> > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.
>
> > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was completely inoperative.
>
> OK, the either its a rather unreliable motherboard or that pure bad luck or you've been furiously grave dancing again.
>
> > If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the first I have seen of it

> The SMART report will allow you to work out whether its the drive or the motherboard.

Nope, it won't.

>
> > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
> > > > COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???
>
> > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.
>
> > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;

> I didnt mean it like that. A positive message does mean that the fault isnt currently visible.

IOW, doesn't mean much. Thanks Rod for clarifying that. That's very helpful of you.

>
> > This is why I posted!!
>
> > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
>
> > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
>
> > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
> > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.
>
> > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.
>
> > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
>
> > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
> > > > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.
>
> > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
>
> > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
>
> > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
>
> > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you
> > mentioned
>
> > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
> > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?
>
> > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
> > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
>
> > Everything checks out successfully on SMART.

> Sorry, I meant post the report here, dont just use the OKs, those are meaninless.

Yeah, you were obviously rather unclear about that.
You should watch your language better.

>
> > It ran in a second or so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
>
> Post it here. Its the last number in each field that
> matters and even then, interpreting those isnt trivial.

Yeah, as you have so often shown.

>
> > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
>
> > > Then download another.
>
> > (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
> > burning it to the CD?)
>
> You can get it in ready to use form using torrents.
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

Previously news.rcn.com <fountainpen.DeleteThis@amexol.com> wrote:
> The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was
> unable to find exception in any of it:

> [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

> 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK: Value is
> normal
> 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
> normal
> 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK:
> Value is normal
> 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK:
> Always passing
> 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK: Value is
> normal
> 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK: Value
> is normal
> 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
> normal
> 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK: Always
> passing
> 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK: Value
> is normal
> 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK: Always
> passing
> BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
> passing
> C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK: Always
> passing
> C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
> passing
> C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42 OK:
> Always passing
> C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK: Always
> passing
> C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
> C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
> C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always
> passing

> (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download
> anything from them)

This drive has a problem. Attribut C4 indicates 95 reallocation
events, while 05 indicates zero reallocated sectors (leat attribute
is raw). This may be due to the drive testing the sectors that
ahad read errors and finding nothing wrong with them. This in turn
means likely the sectors are fine and the problem is with the drive
or its environment. Mechanical shock, bad power and other factors
can cause sectors to be written badly. Marginal servo electronics
or can too. It is not clear whether the drive is to blame, but
it had 95 cases where ist could not read a sector. That is
far too high for reliable operation. If you have 1 unreadable
sector per year that may just be bad luck. Here something is very
wrong, but it may not be something with the disk.

Hmm. On a second look, this disk has gone though 342'566 load/unload
cycles. Notebook drives are only rated for about 500'000 of these
(desktop drives for 50'000). It is possible that the mechanics
of this one are dying just a little bit early and are getting
a tiny bit imprecise, enough to cause the occational bad write.
A bad write then turns into a suspected bad sector, but when testing
it the drive finds nothing wrong and continues to use it.

I think you should replace the disk. I suspect it is staring to show
signs of old age.

Arno
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages 

news.rcn.com <fountainpen.RemoveThis@amexol.com> wrote:

> The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was unable to find exception in any of it:

Comments interleaved.

> [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

> 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
> Value is normal
> 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
> Value is normal
> 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK: Value is normal
> 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK: Always passing
> 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:

This is the bad sectors, its clearly zero. Where did you get your 5 from ?

Maybe DFT is resetting the SMART data tho.

> Value is normal
> 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK:
> Value is normal
> 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value
> is normal
> 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK:
> Always passing
> 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK:
> Value is normal
> 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK:
> Always passing
> BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK:
> Always passing
> C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK:
> Always passing
> C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
> passing
> C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42

That max of 42C is fine, so the bads cant have come from the drive
getting stinking hot unless this SMART value has been reset too.

> OK: Always passing
> C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK:

Thats not good. That does indicate a drive which has a problem.

> Always passing
> C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count
> 0 100 100 0 OK:
> Always passing

Very unusual to have a high reallocation event count and yet no reallocated
sectors and no pending sectors and no uncorrectable sectors.

Looks like there is a problem with the drive, which is currently behaving itself.

> C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always passing

> (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download anything from them)

Yeah, there certainly is some risk involved.
 >> Stay informed about: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages