recommend a good surge protector?

>
>> Others who recommend a UPS for surge protection ignore spec numbers and
>> yet somehow know.
>
> ...and others don't ignore numbers, but know that a home user with a $50
> budget isn't going to get ultimate lightning protection.
>
>

Especially a home user who sees lightning maybe one day a year, and even
then its not very bad or long lasting *grins*
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

As John Weiss demonstrates, it claims no effective protection. But
it does make subjective claims. Yes, APC does provide protection from
some types of surges. But again, the typically destructive surge is
longitudinal mode. So APC doesn't provide a number for protection from
each type of surge. They don't even list from which type of surge it
protects. They leave John to assume it protects from all types of
surges. John complied.

They do provide numbers, as required by UL, such as joules and
let-through voltage. These numbers don't claim protection. Numbers
required by UL's human safety standards. Furthermore, to be a
minimally sufficient protector, it should be 3000+ joules. IOW with
only 420 joules, a surge too small to overwhelm protection inside the
adjacent appliance may, instead, vaporize those 420 joules. An
unacceptable event (smoke) will promote that protector to the naive.
420 joules is too small and is not effective protection. John did not
know that and therefore assumed 420 joules is protection.

Meanwhile, a minimally sufficient protector will earth direct
lightning strikes AND remain functional (not vaporize). Just another
reason why 'too few' joules means no effective protection. But then
APC is not claiming effective protection. APC is promoting claims to
John who assumed without first learning the technology.

Protection is installed for direct strikes. Protection from well
over 90% of all direct strikes can be installed with a $50 protector.
But that means one $50 protector is properly earthed. Why is that coax
antenna wire earthed where it enters the building? Same reason.
Earthing defines protection from a direct strike. Protection that is
'near zero without earthing' increases to well over 90% of direct
strikes with proper earthing.

How well proven are simple protectors? Well, does your telephone
company shut down during every thunderstorm to protect their $million
switching computer? Of course not. That computer remains connected to
overhead wires everywhere in town AND operates routinely during all
thunderstorms. Does the telco install massive and expensive
protectors? Of course not. Telco install an inexpensive protector on
each incoming wire. But the telco needs protection from 100% of direct
strikes. Telco expands an earth ground into a massive $thousand
earthing system. Earthing - not the APC - is protection.

John Weiss demonstrated with numbers that APC does not make effective
protection claims. APC makes subjective claims so that John will
assume. Even his joules numbers are undersized - ineffective.
Protection is about earthing (ie. telco switching center). APC avoids
earthing discussions because their protection is not for the type of
surge that typically causes damage. John's quoted numbers say nothing
about protection. APC makes no claims for protection from each type of
surge. But then John is the type of person APC needs to promote their
products. John provided numbers that make no claims of protection from
each type of transient. John demonstrates why APC is so often promoted
by those with insufficient electrical knowledge.

John - no earth ground means no effective protection.

For effective surge protection, a minimally acceptable and properly
earthed protector does not come from APC, Tripplite, Belkin, etc.
Effective protection is provided by companies with responsible brand
names such as Square D, GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer,
Polyphaser, and Leviton. Protectors that provide an essential and
dedicated earthing connection.

Protection is only as effective as its earth ground which is why
some incoming utility wires (cable TV coax) are earthed where it enters
a building - no protector required. No earth ground means no effective
protection. Notice, John, how APC completely ignores earthing.
Effective protection is defined by only one protector - and earthing.
A solution that costs tens of times less money and actually provides
protection.

liquidblue - lightning in this discussion occurs typically once every
eight years. Plug-in protectors don't even claim to protect from this
event. The 'whole house' protector means protection from most every
lightning strike for about $1 per protected appliance. We install and
properly earth one 'whole house' protector for effective protection at
ten of times less money.

Meanwhile, consider what happens when plug-in protectors are grossly
undersized and located in more dangerous locations such as on a desk or
in dust balls behind that desk:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

They performed as John's numerical specifications claimed. The less
expensive solution (available at Lowes, Home Depot, and electrical
supply houses) is the effective solution. Home also must meet and
exceed post 1990 Natinonal Electrical Code requirements for earthing.

John Weiss wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1 DeleteThis @usa.net> wrote...
>> Meanwhile, a plug-in UPS does not claim to provide surge protection -
>> as demonstrated in numerical specs. Again, review those numbers.
>
> You're just plain wrong here. From APC:
>
> "Lightning and Surge Protection Protection from surges, spikes and even
> lightning is guaranteed!"
>
> "Surge energy rating 365 Joules" (for the bottom-of-the-line BACK-UPS 8
> outlet 350VA model)
>
> "Surge energy rating 420 Joules" (for a better BACK-UPS 1200 VA model)
>
> "Surge energy rating 880 Joules" (for a better-yet BACK-UPS XL 3000 VA
> model)
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

"w_tom" <w_tom1.RemoveThis@usa.net> wrote:
> Protection from well over 90% of all direct strikes can
> be installed with a $50 protector. But that means one
> $50 protector is properly earthed.
> [....]
> Protection that is 'near zero without earthing' increases
> to well over 90% of direct strikes with proper earthing.
>
> [....]
> For effective surge protection, a minimally acceptable and
> properly earthed protector does not come from APC, Tripplite,
> Belkin, etc. Effective protection is provided by companies with
> responsible brand names such as Square D, GE, Siemens,
> Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Polyphaser, and Leviton. Protectors
> that provide an essential and dedicated earthing connection.
>
> [.....]
> The 'whole house' protector means protection from most every
> lightning strike for about $1 per protected appliance. We install and
> properly earth one 'whole house' protector for effective protection at
> ten of times less money.
>
> [.....]
> The less expensive solution (available at Lowes, Home Depot, and
> electrical supply houses) is the effective solution. Home also must
> meet and exceed post 1990 Natinonal Electrical Code requirements
> for earthing.


It sounds like the concept is simple and inexpensive enough for
everyone to install (or have installed) whole house protection and that
the hardware is readily accessible - even to the DIYer. How labor
intensive is the installation, and does the average neighborhood
electirician have the knowledge and skills to do it? Can you recommend
any books on the subject?

*TimDaniels*
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:02:48 -0700, "John Weiss"
<jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote:

>"w_tom" <w_tom1 DeleteThis @usa.net> wrote...
>>
>> Meanwhile, a plug-in UPS does not claim to provide surge protection -
>> as demonstrated in numerical specs. Again, review those numbers.
>
>You're just plain wrong here. From APC:
>
> "Lightning and Surge Protection Protection from surges, spikes and even
>lightning is guaranteed!"


So far so good, but then they get into that part of LIMITING
their above statement.


>
> "Surge energy rating 365 Joules" (for the bottom-of-the-line BACK-UPS 8
>outlet 350VA model)
>
> "Surge energy rating 420 Joules" (for a better BACK-UPS 1200 VA model)
>
> "Surge energy rating 880 Joules" (for a better-yet BACK-UPS XL 3000 VA
>model)
>

So these statements inspire little confidence, you'll get
the same from a $5 surge strip. Further, it's not a
continual protection, it's a one time event. Further, there
is no guarantee it will survive repeated surges of a lower
magnitutude. Rather, they may attempt to guarantee to the
extent of replacement value coverage, but no attempt in
design and implementation to back up the guarantee.

So essentially what you are buying is an insurance policy,
not protection, unless you plan on continual replacement and
several layers of it for redundancy.



>
>> Others who recommend a UPS for surge protection ignore spec numbers and
>> yet somehow know.
>
>...and others don't ignore numbers, but know that a home user with a $50
>budget isn't going to get ultimate lightning protection.
>

If someone has only $50, they should buy the $5 surge strip
and put aside the $45 to pay towards any damages if/when
they occur. Buying a $50 UPS does not provide more
protection, you'd need a line-conditioning or online type of
UPS for that and they're significantly more expensive at a
capacity near what's necessary for a modern desktop computer
(as we'd assume given the newsgroup,
alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt).
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

"kony" <spam.TakeThisOut@spam.com> wrote...
>>
>> "Lightning and Surge Protection Protection from surges, spikes and
>> even
>>lightning is guaranteed!"
>
> So these statements inspire little confidence, you'll get
> the same from a $5 surge strip. Further, it's not a
> continual protection, it's a one time event. Further, there
> is no guarantee it will survive repeated surges of a lower
> magnitutude. Rather, they may attempt to guarantee to the
> extent of replacement value coverage, but no attempt in
> design and implementation to back up the guarantee.
>
> So essentially what you are buying is an insurance policy,
> not protection, unless you plan on continual replacement and
> several layers of it for redundancy.

You're contradicting yourself here:

"Further, it's not a continual protection, it's a one time event."

"not protection, "

Again, a home user with a $50 budget isn't expecting bulletproof lightning
protection, but a degree of protection that is better than nothing. Either
a surge protector or a UPS will provide some degree of overvoltage
protection, including that resulting from a near -- but not direct --
lightning strike. The UPS will give the added benefits of undervoltage
protection during brownouts and time for an elegant shutdown in the event of
a power failure. Either can be had within the OP's stated budget. The
"insurance policy" provided by the mfgr's warranty is a bonus in either
case.

I won't argue that putting a "$5 surge strip" between the wall socket and
the UPS wouldn't be a good idea, and the $5 unit colud be replaced at a
whim.


> If someone has only $50, they should buy the $5 surge strip
> and put aside the $45 to pay towards any damages if/when
> they occur. Buying a $50 UPS does not provide more
> protection, you'd need a line-conditioning or online type of
> UPS for that and they're significantly more expensive at a
> capacity near what's necessary for a modern desktop computer

About 3 years ago I bought a 650 VA Belkin line-conditioning UPS for $80,
and it still works just fine. You can argue that that is "significantly
more expensive" than $50, but it is well within the cost reach of most home
computer users.

If you prefer a $5 surge strip, have at it.
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

"Don Freeman" <freemand.TakeThisOut@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:44f7345f$0$96177$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> "liquidblue" <not.TakeThisOut@me.com> wrote in message
> news:aiFJg.3656$xQ1.2113@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>> "w_tom" has been pounding the NGs about "whole house surge
>>
>> It is good to know that there are people out there who care enough to
>> inform the average person on matters like this.
>>
>>
> Yeah, but he borders on being a member of the tin-foil hat wearing crowd.
I don't know if he ever has mentioned that most homes built since about 1985
(at least here in tornado alley) have whole house protection. It is one of
those "automatic" things that contractors do here. Another thing I have not
heard is that even with whole house protection there is no guarantee it will
help with very close strikes or a nearby positive lightning strike which is
not uncommon here. Nothing is completely effective against lightning. That
is just the nature of the beast.

Ed
>
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:23:49 GMT, "Ed Medlin"
<ed.TakeThisOut@edmedlin.com> wrote:

>> Yeah, but he borders on being a member of the tin-foil hat wearing crowd.
>I don't know if he ever has mentioned that most homes built since about 1985
>(at least here in tornado alley) have whole house protection. It is one of
>those "automatic" things that contractors do here. Another thing I have not
>heard is that even with whole house protection there is no guarantee it will
>help with very close strikes or a nearby positive lightning strike which is
>not uncommon here. Nothing is completely effective against lightning. That
>is just the nature of the beast.


That's not true, unles you mean the lightning actually
struck the component itself.
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

"liquidblue" <not.DeleteThis@me.com> wrote in message
news:XtHJg.3718$xQ1.3482@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "John Weiss" <jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote in
> message news:Qv2dndD25soJt2rZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "liquidblue" <not.DeleteThis@me.com> wrote...
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if you people could help me out. I want to purchase a
>>>> surge protector for my home computer. I was looking to spend no more
>>>> than
>>>> $50 for one, and it needs to have at least six outlets. It doesn't have
>>>> to have all the bells and whistles, just a good quality basic surge
>>>> protector. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> CompUSA has a Belkin for $39.00. I guess that's the one *_*
>>
>> You can spend the $40 for a surge protector, or you can spend a few bux
>> more
>> for a combination surge protector and low-power (350-500 VA) UPS. I
>> bought
>> a small APC UPS for about $50 a while back. Just look around for sales
>> and
>> specials.
>>
>> The UPS has built-in surge protection equivalent to the stand-alone surge
>> protectors, with the bonus of keeping the computer running for a few
>> minutes
>> during a brownout or giving you the option of an elegant shutdown during
>> a
>> power outage.
>>
>> APC and Belkin are the common ones.
>>
>>
>
> Nice combo! I will look into that...thanks *_*
It is another layer for protection. Where I live we DO have a lot of severe
lightning and have whole house protection. I also live in a very rural area
where our power is erratic to say the least. I have two 1500va APC UPSs to
protect my home entertainment center and my office where my computer
equipment is located. Even my phone lines go through the UPSs for surges
during storms. If your area doesn't get much in the lightning area you could
get by with much smaller units. Mine will give me about 30-45mins of good
power to finish what I am doing and shut down without as much as a hiccup
from the computer.

Ed
>
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

Anyone who can snap a circuit breaker into a breaker box or can wire
a new wall receptacle would have no problem installing a 'whole house'
protector. However (again), earthing must meet and exceed post 1990
National Electrical Code earthing requirements (that is necessary for
any surge protection including one provided for free inside telephone
NID). Installation should be easy enough; most complex part might be
driving that 10 foot earth ground rod into earth and routing a 4 AWG
ground wire on a shorter distance (direct with no sharp bends and
separated from all other wires) through foundation.

IOW effective protection can be installed by a homeowner with
supplies sold in Lowes or Home Depot; or an electrician may be
necessary to upgrade earthing and therefore will also install that
'whole house' protector. Some earth might be challenging to drive an
earthing rod. Routing that earth ground wire shorter and more direct
than required by code might require some tedious drilling (electrician
should understand why that earthing wire over top of foundation might
be too long for surge protection). DIY is challenging, fun, and
sometimes takes as much time as we originally estimated. But a 'whole
house' protector, with no doubt, is the effective surge solution.

Generally, earthing is demonstrated in any good DIY electrical books
- some even sold in those big box hardware stores. Stores also have an
open breaker box so that salesman can demonstrate where things connect.
Additional information is provided with the 'whole house' protector.

It is not hard to do. But the DIY installer should be comfortable
and familiar with installing electric receptacles and other simple
electric wiring techniques - including precautions by turning off AC
electric.

Timothy Daniels wrote:
> It sounds like the concept is simple and inexpensive enough for
> everyone to install (or have installed) whole house protection and that
> the hardware is readily accessible - even to the DIYer. How labor
> intensive is the installation, and does the average neighborhood
> electirician have the knowledge and skills to do it? Can you recommend
> any books on the subject?
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:31:59 -0700, "John Weiss"
<jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote:

>"kony" <spam.DeleteThis@spam.com> wrote...
>>>
>>> "Lightning and Surge Protection Protection from surges, spikes and
>>> even
>>>lightning is guaranteed!"
>>
>> So these statements inspire little confidence, you'll get
>> the same from a $5 surge strip. Further, it's not a
>> continual protection, it's a one time event. Further, there
>> is no guarantee it will survive repeated surges of a lower
>> magnitutude. Rather, they may attempt to guarantee to the
>> extent of replacement value coverage, but no attempt in
>> design and implementation to back up the guarantee.
>>
>> So essentially what you are buying is an insurance policy,
>> not protection, unless you plan on continual replacement and
>> several layers of it for redundancy.
>
>You're contradicting yourself here:
>
> "Further, it's not a continual protection, it's a one time event."
>
> "not protection, "

No, it's not a contradiction.

Note when I wrote "it's a one time event" that I did not
write that we can be certain it saves the equipment even
that one time, though we hope it does shunt enough for at
least one time, and we hope that if there is significant
degradation that it goes ahead and blows out the surge
protector so this is noticed, rather than leaving it mostly
ineffective but still hooked up as if it'd do any good.

"Protection" would only be true if you accepted that you
have to throw away the device even if it appears to still
work, because you can't conclude when it will fail or what
will happen to the surge when it does.

In short, they are a false sense of security and mostly
false advertising to claim "protection", instead of claiming
mitigation of minor surges. People like black and white
concepts though, and they like "cheap", so now we have what
are called surge protectors that are letting the surge get
all the way into the equipment then that surge finds what?
It finds two paths- one is through the surge protector and
out a moderate impedance path to earth ground (typically
considered low impedance but to a very high voltage, not low
enough), and the second path is still through the connected
equipment.

That's not "protection" except as a marketing term.

>
>Again, a home user with a $50 budget isn't expecting bulletproof lightning
>protection, but a degree of protection that is better than nothing.

You are attempting to describe an extremely good and
moderate level of protection, then claim the $50 UPS is the
moderate level. It is not. The $50 UPS is a very low
quality entry level pseudo-protection equivalent to a $5
surge strip, and $45 wasted if one didn't need an UPS. That
it has a minimal level of surge protection is fine, but it
is not meant for this purpose and a vast majority of cost
spent towards parts that have no benefit in surge
prevention.


>Either
>a surge protector or a UPS will provide some degree of overvoltage
>protection,

It'll provide a little yes, but the types of surges it can
withstand are typically the same the equipment PSU could,
too.

The protection isn't forever though, these are sacrificial
protective devices and when it goes, the remaining surge
isn't shunted, and before it goes (fails) you have no
warning to replace it.

<snip>

>I won't argue that putting a "$5 surge strip" between the wall socket and
>the UPS wouldn't be a good idea, and the $5 unit colud be replaced at a
>whim.

While it was a useful contrast, it's not nearly as useful as
a surge protector as it is as a product with a connected
equipment warranty, and of course as a multi-outlet strip.
Likewise with the UPS, it's a whole lot more useful as an
UPS than a surge protector.


>
>
>> If someone has only $50, they should buy the $5 surge strip
>> and put aside the $45 to pay towards any damages if/when
>> they occur. Buying a $50 UPS does not provide more
>> protection, you'd need a line-conditioning or online type of
>> UPS for that and they're significantly more expensive at a
>> capacity near what's necessary for a modern desktop computer
>
>About 3 years ago I bought a 650 VA Belkin line-conditioning UPS for $80,
>and it still works just fine. You can argue that that is "significantly
>more expensive" than $50, but it is well within the cost reach of most home
>computer users.

Frankly I'd question the quality of the unit at line
conditioning for only $80, but perhaps you got a good deal
there, it happens every now and then.
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels DeleteThis @NoSpamDot.com> wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1 DeleteThis @usa.net> wrote:
>> Protection from well over 90% of all direct strikes can
>> be installed with a $50 protector. But that means one
>> $50 protector is properly earthed.
>> [....]
>> Protection that is 'near zero without earthing' increases
>> to well over 90% of direct strikes with proper earthing.
>>
>> [....]
>> For effective surge protection, a minimally acceptable and
>> properly earthed protector does not come from APC, Tripplite,
>> Belkin, etc. Effective protection is provided by companies with
>> responsible brand names such as Square D, GE, Siemens,
>> Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Polyphaser, and Leviton. Protectors
>> that provide an essential and dedicated earthing connection.
>>
>> [.....]
>> The 'whole house' protector means protection from most every
>> lightning strike for about $1 per protected appliance. We install
>> and properly earth one 'whole house' protector for effective
>> protection at ten of times less money.
>>
>> [.....]
>> The less expensive solution (available at Lowes, Home Depot, and
>> electrical supply houses) is the effective solution. Home also must
>> meet and exceed post 1990 Natinonal Electrical Code requirements
>> for earthing.

> It sounds like the concept is simple and inexpensive enough for
> everyone to install (or have installed) whole house protection

Yes, but he radically understates/lies about the cost of it.

And it wont necessarily protect everything in the house if you get a direct
lightning strike on the mains where it enters the house or close to that.

In many cases it actually makes a lot more sense to either
buy one of the surge protectors that provides insurance for
what is plugged into it, or ensure that the house contents
insurance covers lightning damage. That last may not actually
cost you anything, just need some care when picking the insurance.

> and that the hardware is readily accessible - even to the DIYer.

That is one are he lies about. True whole house protection that can
survive a lightning strike on the power lines down the street cant be
done with something cheap added to the mains distribution box.

> How labor intensive is the installation,

Quite.

> and does the average neighborhood electirician have the knowledge and skills
> to do it?

Nope. Its a specialist area unless you just want better
than nothing and dont expect it to survive a direct strike
on the power lines down the street, or someone knocking
over a power pole and ending up with 11KV on the lines
that are carrying the 240V down the street.

And for the yanks, most of the rest of the world doesnt use
the small pole pig system that is quite common in the US.

> Can you recommend any books on the subject?
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

w_tom wrote:
>
> John - no earth ground means no effective protection.
>
> For effective surge protection, a minimally acceptable and properly
> earthed protector does not come from APC, Tripplite, Belkin, etc.
> Effective protection is provided by companies with responsible brand
> names such as Square D, GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer,
> Polyphaser, and Leviton. Protectors that provide an essential and
> dedicated earthing connection.
>
> Protection is only as effective as its earth ground which is why
> some incoming utility wires (cable TV coax) are earthed where it enters
> a building - no protector required. No earth ground means no effective
> protection. Notice, John, how APC completely ignores earthing.


The best information I have seen on surge protection is at
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion...y051.pd
- w_tom provided the link to this guide
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC
power and communication circuits"
- it was published by the IEEE in 2005
- the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US

A second guide is
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home"
- it is published by the National Institute of Standards and
Technology, the US government agency formerly called the National
Bureau of Standards
- it was published in 2001

Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background. Read
one (or both) to understand surges and protection

Both say plug-in surge suppressors are effective. The IEEE guide (maybe
also the NIST one) give recomendations for ratings.

All interconnected devices, like a computer and printer, need to
connect to the same surge protector. If a device, like a computer, has
external connections like phone or LAN, all those wires have to run
through the surge suppressor for protection. This type of suppressor is
called a surge reference equalizer (SRE) by the IEEE (also described by
the NIST). The idea is that all wires connected to the device (power,
phone, CATV, LAN, ...) are clamped to a common ground at the SRE. The
voltage on the wires passing through the SRE are held to a voltage safe
to the connected device

The primary action of a plug-in surge suppressor is clamping, not
earthing. Since this viloates w_'s religous principle that "protection
is only as effective as its earth ground" he apparently can't read and
understand these guides.


bud--
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector? 

"bud--" <budnews.RemoveThis@isp.com> wrote.

Thanks for posting the links.

*TimDaniels*
 >> Stay informed about: recommend a good surge protector?