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I stuck with agp, good move?

 
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billt94




Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:40 pm
Post subject: I stuck with agp, good move?

Quick question for you guys, I just upgraded my asus p4p800 system with a leadtek geforce 6800 gt vid card and a gig of corsair xms ram (2 gigs). I think it kicks a**, but was wondering if anybody thinks it would have been worth it to rebuild the whole rig and add a 7800gt or gtx.

So, what do you guys think???

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johns2

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 188



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Should be first rate. Why is everybody upping to 2gigs ram?
I've seen this several places, and I've been told for years
that 1 gig basically is all a PC can handle.

johns

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Conor1

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Since: Jul 08, 2004
Posts: 969



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:55 am
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In article <1131091326.632332.217610 RemoveThis @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
johns says...
> Should be first rate. Why is everybody upping to 2gigs ram?

Battlefield 2.


--
Conor

"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
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kony

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 7693



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 4 Nov 2005 02:37:05 -0500, billt94
<UseLinkToEmail RemoveThis @www.hardwareforumz.com> wrote:

>Quick question for you guys, I just upgraded my asus p4p800 system
>with a leadtek geforce 6800 gt vid card and a gig of corsair xms ram
>(2 gigs). I think it kicks a**, but was wondering if anybody thinks it
>would have been worth it to rebuild the whole rig and add a 7800gt or
>gtx.
>
>So, what do you guys think???

PCI Express offers no current gain for gaming. What it does
do, is offer support for newer video cards, which in the
upper-end, will obviously be faster. Naturally a 7800GT is
a step up, but higher cost too, especially since you would
have to replace the motherboard, and possibly CPU (can only
get so much out of a video card upgrade before the CPU
becomes the most significant bottleneck).

If it plays all your games fine, while your prior card
didn't, then it was a good upgrade. Only time will tell
when you feel you need to upgrade again and so only then
will you know if you got the value out of that AGP card or
would've been better off having a PCI Express card to reuse.
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johns2

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 188



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Well, Far Cry. I know there is a problem with not enough of
something to hold all the AI when set to the highest video
settings. I've discovered that even though I have a very
good gaming system, if I don't reboot between levels, I'll
get respawning and even problems with cutscene loads.
AMD64 3000+, 1 gig ddr400, 160 gig Hitachi SATA,
Gigabyte k8ns mobo, ATI 9800 Pro

If I do reboot between levels, the system runs perfectly
with high FPS, with all settings maxed in Far Cry. I just
bought CoD2, and the guys at the store said "up the
ram", or you are going to have nothing but a slide show
in the game.

johns
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kony

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 7693



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:45:45 GMT, kony <spam.TakeThisOut@spam.com>
wrote:

>On 4 Nov 2005 02:37:05 -0500, billt94
><UseLinkToEmail.TakeThisOut@www.hardwareforumz.com> wrote:
>
>>Quick question for you guys, I just upgraded my asus p4p800 system
>>with a leadtek geforce 6800 gt vid card and a gig of corsair xms ram
>>(2 gigs). I think it kicks a**, but was wondering if anybody thinks it
>>would have been worth it to rebuild the whole rig and add a 7800gt or
>>gtx.
>>
>>So, what do you guys think???
>
>PCI Express offers no current gain for gaming.

<snip>

Always some kind of exception and in this case it would be
SLI'd cards on PCI Express, but when considering only 1
video card, AGP 8X is not a bottleneck yet.
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kony

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 7693



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 4 Nov 2005 15:42:59 -0800, "johns" <johns123.TakeThisOut@moscow.com>
wrote:

>Well, Far Cry. I know there is a problem with not enough of
>something to hold all the AI when set to the highest video
>settings. I've discovered that even though I have a very
>good gaming system, if I don't reboot between levels, I'll
>get respawning and even problems with cutscene loads.
>AMD64 3000+, 1 gig ddr400, 160 gig Hitachi SATA,
>Gigabyte k8ns mobo, ATI 9800 Pro
>
>If I do reboot between levels, the system runs perfectly
>with high FPS, with all settings maxed in Far Cry.

Why not just lower the settings a touch? Rebooting between
levels seems like it would kill the enjoyability of the game
far more than adjusting some settings from max to medium.
Some of them, like water or lighting, change quite a bit
more between low and medium than between medium and high.

If your video card has only 128MB of memory, I'd look at it
first, though maybe the video drivers...
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kony

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 7693



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:57:19 -0800, "DaveW"
<somewhere RemoveThis @zero.org> wrote:

>WAIT for the major upgrade until late next year when the new Windows "Vista"
>comes out. It will have major hardware requirements, based on what's
>standard NEXT year.


Are you assuming anyone in particular will actually WANT to
run Vista? IMO, now is a real good time to snatch up a
spare (licensed) retail copy of XP Pro so one doesn't become
a beta-tester for Vista. By the time it's mature, NEXT year
will have already passed.
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johns2

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 188



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:22 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Friend has one of the best game boxes on the market, and
he has the same problems. With all settings maxed, if he
continues through 2 or more levels without rebooting, he
gets the same respawning, no-loads on the cutscenes,
and reduced AI. With rebooting .. none of that. The
reason you need to run maxed out in Far Cry is the AI is
reduced quite a bit until you run all settings to Very High.
Most owners in Far Cry have never seen the advanced
AI because of this. Seems strange that the coders of
Far Cry tied the AI and special effects to the video settings,
but it is true.

johns
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kony

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 7693



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 5 Nov 2005 15:22:19 -0800, "johns" <johns123 DeleteThis @moscow.com>
wrote:

>Friend has one of the best game boxes on the market, and
>he has the same problems. With all settings maxed, if he
>continues through 2 or more levels without rebooting, he
>gets the same respawning, no-loads on the cutscenes,
>and reduced AI. With rebooting .. none of that. The
>reason you need to run maxed out in Far Cry is the AI is
>reduced quite a bit until you run all settings to Very High.
>Most owners in Far Cry have never seen the advanced
>AI because of this. Seems strange that the coders of
>Far Cry tied the AI and special effects to the video settings,
>but it is true.
>
>johns


Not only does it seem strange, it isn't true.
You can clearly compare the command variables passed by any
particular, individual video settings, they are NOT changing
the AI. If instead you mean some kind of globel machine
spec or environment setting, you can set that to high but
not set the individual video settings to (or change them
from) high.

I would have to completely disagree that a system is a "best
gaming system" if it can't even run the game without
rebooting. A system is hardware, software, and
configuration. Having only the former does not make up for
lack of the latter two.
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Ruel Smith

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Since: Sep 30, 2004
Posts: 267



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: I stuck with agp, good move? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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billt94 wrote:

> Quick question for you guys, I just upgraded my asus p4p800 system
> with a leadtek geforce 6800 gt vid card and a gig of corsair xms ram
> (2 gigs). I think it kicks a**, but was wondering if anybody thinks it
> would have been worth it to rebuild the whole rig and add a 7800gt or
> gtx.
>
> So, what do you guys think???

If you upgraded an existing system, great. You can add life for just a few
bucks. It beats the fact that if you built a new system, you would have to
shell out for a new graphics card, at least, anyway.

If you built from the ground up, I always advocate getting on the future
wave of technology for a reasonable amount of money. Of course, this
doesn't mean buy a $250 motherboard and $800 CPU to get the latest
greatest, but within your means, make sure you're using at least SATA, PCI
express and the latest CPU socket. That way your computer build dollar will
go farther in the future.
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kapasitor1

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Since: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 869



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:01 am
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"johns" <johns123 DeleteThis @moscow.com> wrote in message
news:1131232939.323730.107430@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Friend has one of the best game boxes on the market, and
> he has the same problems. With all settings maxed, if he
> continues through 2 or more levels without rebooting, he
> gets the same respawning, no-loads on the cutscenes,
> and reduced AI. With rebooting .. none of that. The
> reason you need to run maxed out in Far Cry is the AI is
> reduced quite a bit until you run all settings to Very High.
> Most owners in Far Cry have never seen the advanced
> AI because of this. Seems strange that the coders of
> Far Cry tied the AI and special effects to the video settings,
> but it is true.
>
> johns
>

Sounds like a DirectX problem... Far cry doesn't use OGL does it?
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johns2

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 188



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:58 pm
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Yes. And I can prove that you have never seen the advanced AI.
For example, in the River level, if you do not start with a fresh
system, you will not see the Mercs beyond the rope bridge
at the 2 tents just before the last heli comes at you, come all the
way to the rope bridge, and down the trail to engage you from
that side .. while the Mercs at the patrol boat in the river
come ashore and up the bank at the same time ... a two
sided attack. You will never see that because it can't load
except just after a reboot. I can give you dozens of examples
of this. In the Regulator level, after you cross the water,
and enter the building, if you have not rebooted, you will
never see the Mercs in the top room come down the stairs
and join in a melee attack against you in the first room
where the big truck is. You will never see any of that unless
you are set to Very High on all settings. I have a DELL
9100 in my test lab with the GF6800 pci-e 16 video card,
and I get exactly the same effects. I have to reboot to see
the advanced AI, and I will only see it if all settings are
on Very High. Equally in the Catacombs level, when
I come down the stairs into the Catacombs, and the
ceiling breaks in, 3 Invisibles immediately drop in, 2 in
front, and one behind be, and unless I'm in full sprint,
I cannot make it to the stairs past the Fat Boy. You
will never see that if you have played the entire level
without rebooting at the autosav on entering the Catacombs.
And just for fun, in the Factory level, after Val starts fusing
the A-bomb, if I do a fresh reboot at the autosav before
coming out to the bomb, I can attack the Mercs down
the long hallway, and prevent the respawning that
otherwise occurs. I can push the large crates over
to the door where Val and I will exit, and block that
door so those Mercs cannot come out, and they
do not respawn behind me when I go down the long
hallway. Try that with lowered settings, and no reboot.
The Mercs respawn badly, because the "triggers" are
not properly loaded when the level starts. There is
some kind of memory leakage going on ... or there
are stack size limitations that simply run out of space
because there is very little garbage collection in going
from level to level. Some of the Far Cry gamers are
now swearing by 2 gigs of ram which seem to prevent
these problems. Oh yes, the biggie, no Monkeys
with Val in the last part of the Cooler level when you
finally reach Val. I can duplicate that on my system,
but only after I reach the all settings on Very High,
and then play the entire level without rebooting, and
possibly the entire preceding level. If I reboot at the
start of Cooler, that problem dissappears ... or if
I play on just High settings, I never see that problem.
Everybody with lower level PCs sees that problem,
and many have to use the Console to get past it.
I'm sure it is a stack crash or AI load limitation of
some kind, and it is hooked to the video settings.

johns
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johns2

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 188



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:04 pm
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I agree. I think the stack or AI load problems are limited by d3d
.... not by a bug in Far Cry, but I'm not a coder at that level.
I can really cause problems in Far Cry if I have been surfing
the net and running other programs before I start the game
..... but only if I have the video settings to Very High. Don't
get me wrong. Far Cry runs really well on my system, and
looks great on all High settings. I just discovered that the vast
majority of Far Cry gamers have never seen the advanced
AI, because it simply does not load until the settings are
Very High ... and then, only if the level starts after a fresh
reboot to clear all the cashed whatever it is. It really does
look like a DirectX problem.

johns
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Mxsmanic

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Since: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 500



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:55 pm
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johns writes:

> Should be first rate. Why is everybody upping to 2gigs ram?
> I've seen this several places, and I've been told for years
> that 1 gig basically is all a PC can handle.

The Intel x86 32-bit architecture can handle up to 4 gigabytes of RAM,
but a large chunk of the 4 gigabytes is wasted by the BIOS and other
hardware devices (especially PCI Express) and by video memory.
Microsoft Windows can't allocate more than 2 GB to a single
application in most Windows versions.

Two gigabytes is actually more than enough for just about anything, in
theory. Software bloat is the reason why many people are constantly
adding memory to their systems.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
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